On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:02:16 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Craig Weinberg
> > I understand that, but it still assumes that there is a such thing as a
> > of functions which could be identified and reproduced that cause
> > consciousness. I don't assume that, because consciousness isn't like
> > anything else. It is the source of all functions and appearances, not
> > effect of them. Once you have consciousness in the universe, then it can
> > enhanced and altered in infinite ways, but none of them can replace the
> > experience that is your own.
> No, the paper does *not* assume that there is a set of functions that
> if reproduced will will cause consciousness. It assumes that something
> like what you are saying is right.
By assume I mean the implicit assumptions which are unstated in the paper.
The thought experiment comes out of a paradox arising from assumptions
about qualia and the brain which are both false in my view. I see the brain
as the flattened qualia of human experience.
> >>> > This is the point of the thought experiment. The limitations of all
> >>> > forms of
> >>> > measurement and perception preclude all possibility of there ever
> >>> > a
> >>> > such thing as an exhaustively complete set of third person behaviors
> >>> > any
> >>> > system.
> >>> >
> >>> > What is it that you don't think I understand?
> >>> What you don't understand is that an exhaustively complete set of
> >>> behaviours is not required.
> >> Yes, it is. Not for prosthetic enhancements, or repairs to a nervous
> >> system, but to replace a nervous system without replacing the person
> who is
> >> using it, yes, there is no set of behaviors which can ever be
> >> enough in theory to accomplish that. You might be able to do it
> >> biologically, but there is no reason to trust it unless and until
> >> can be walked off of their brain for a few weeks or months and then
> >> back on.
> >> The replacement components need only be within the engineering
> >> of the nervous system components. This is a difficult task but it is
> >> achievable in principle.
> > You assume that consciousness can be replaced, but I understand exactly
> > it can't. You can believe that there is no difference between scooping
> > your brain stem and replacing it with a functional equivalent as long as
> > was well engineered, but to me it's a completely misguided notion.
> > Consciousness doesn't exist on the outside of us. Engineering only deals
> > with exteriors. If the universe were designed by engineers, there could
> > no consciousness.
> Yes, that is exactly what the paper assumes. Exactly that!
It still is modeling the experience of qualia as having a quantitative
relation with the ratio of brain to non-brain. That isn't the only way to
model it, and I use a different model.
> >> I assume that my friends have not been replaced by robots. If they have
> >> been then that means the robots can almost perfectly replicate their
> >> behaviour, since I (and people in general) am very good at picking up
> >> tiny deviations from normal behaviour. The question then is, if the
> >> of a human can be replicated this closely by a machine does that mean
> >> consciousness can also be replicated? The answer is yes, since
> otherwise we
> >> would have the possibility of a person having radically different
> >> experiences but behaving normally and being unaware that their
> >> were different.
> > The answer is no. A cartoon of Bugs Bunny has no experiences but behaves
> > just like Bugs Bunny would if he had experiences. You are eating the
> And if it were possible to replicate the behaviour without the
> experiences - i.e. make a zombie - it would be possible to make a
> partial zombie, which lacks some experiences but behaves normally and
> doesn't realise that it lacks those experiences. Do you agree that
> this is the implication? If not, where is the flaw in the reasoning?
The word zombie implies that you have an expectation of consciousness but
there isn't any. That is a fallacy from the start, since there is not
reason to expect a simulation to have any experience at all. It's not a
zombie, it's a puppet.
A partial zombie is just someone who has brain damage, and yes if you tried
to replace enough of a person's brain with a non-biological material, you
would get brain damage, dementia, coma, and death.
> Stathis Papaioannou
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