On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote: > Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could > have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. > Craig > Could you provide a link where you more fully explain what sense is and how it relates to comp and consciousness? You probably already have. But I missed it. Richard > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:50:17 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: >> >> Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations >> ? >> >> The short answer is that I am proposing that : >> >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. >> >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted >> upward-directed >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed platonic >> reason, >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know >> enough >> mathematics to be more specific. >> >> If you would like a more complete discussion, read below. >> >> >> >> >> ======================================================= >> A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER: >> Contemporary thinking on consciousness is that it is an "emergent >> property" >> of computational complexity among neurons. This raises some questions: >> >> A. Is the emergence of consciouness simply a another name for Penrose's >> condition of non-computability ? >> >> http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html >> >> "Conventional explanations portray consciousness as an emergent property >> of classical >> computer-like activities in the brain's neural networks. >> The prevailing views among scientists in this camp are that >> >> 1) patterns of neural network activities correlate with mental states, >> 2) synchronous network oscillations in thalamus and cerebral cortex >> temporally bind information, >> and >> 3) consciousness emerges as a novel property of computational complexity >> among neurons." >> >> >> >> B. Or is there another way to look at this emergence ? >> >> Now my understanding of "emergent properties" is that they appear or >> emerge through looking at a phenomenon >> at a lower degree of magnification "from above. " Thus sociology is an >> emergent property of >> the behavior of many minds. >> >> IMHO "from above" means looking downward from Platonia. From a wiser >> position. >> >> Penrose seems to take take two views of Platonia: >> >> http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html >> >> One is his belief that there is a realm of non-computability, presumably >> that of Platonia as experienced. >> All art and insight comes from such an experience. >> >> On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, Penrose seems to believe that the >> universe is made up of >> quantum "spin networks", which presumably can model even the most complex >> entities. >> He does not seem to deny that the "non-computational" calculations belong >> to the realm >> of spin networks. >> >> This casts some doubt on his belief in the possibility of >> non-computability, >> and may even allow his spin networks, which are presumably complete, >> to escape intact from Godel's incompleteness limitation. >> >> Instead, I propose the following: >> >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. >> >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted >> upward-directed >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed platonic >> reason, >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know >> enough >> mathematics to be more specific. >> ================================================================= >> >> >> >> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net >> 10/16/2012 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/teYzjZJLGQoJ. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
