On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:24:07 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> On 10/16/2012 2:17 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:08:49 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>>
>> On 10/16/2012 8:54 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg<whats...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If
>> you could
>> >> >have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness.
>> >> >Craig
>> >> >
>> > Could you provide a link where you more fully explain what sense is
>> > and how it relates to comp and consciousness? You probably already
>> > have. But I missed it.
>> > Richard
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> Unless you are a zombie, you are experiencing right now exactly
>> what Sense is. Only you can know exactly what the Sense of Richard
>> Ruquist and Craig can only experience (and thus know) what his Sense
>> is. What you need to understand is that Sense is strictly 1p, it has no
>> 3p aspect. You either experience your own version of it or, like Dennett
>> and the materialist, try to deny its existence.
>>
>
> Right! At the same time, I would say that there is no truly 3p aspect of
> anything. The 3p arises as an internalization of many 1p (private
> qualitative) experiences within another 1p experience (as quantitative
> public token views).
>
> Craig
>
>
> I agree 100%. All 3p related concepts are abstractions constructed
> from many different 1p's. The idea of "Reality" is a good example of this
> and it is why I define Reality as "what which is incontrovertible for some
> collection N (N > 2) of observers that can communicate (or interact) in
> some meaningful way. Of course the word "meaningful" is a bit ambiguous...
>
I can't find the post where we were talking about simulation, but I was
going to lay it out like this.
I'm in the desert and I see a shiny patch in the distance.
I can consider the shimmering patch many things:
A. Under-Signifying Range of Sense:
1) A perceptually modeled representation of dynamic changing optical
conditions based on photon collisions and retinal stimulation.
2) A correlate for neurological functions evolved to link reflection with
the presence of life sustaining H2O.
a) this condition is either validated by the presence of water of
negated by its absence.
b) the limitations of 2) commonly lead to false positives owing to
the similarity of patterns between heat convection and reflection off of
the surface of water.
B. Signifying or Personal Range of Sense
1) maybe a mirage (simulation of water)
2) maybe water (which could be just as easily called a simulation of a
mirage)
C. Over-signifying or Super-personal Range of Sense
1) hope and salvation
2) punishment from God/trickery from the devil.
3) a dramatic point in the story
Simulation, to me, arises in the personal range of sensemaking. In the
lower ranges, simulation is not applicable (saccharine molecules do not
simulate sucrose molecules, polymer resin doesn't simulate the cellulose of
a tree, etc) and in the upper ranges, interpretation is already ambiguous
and faith based. You can't have a simulated dark night of the soul, it is
an experience that already defines itself as unique and genuine (even if
it's a genuine experience of being tricked).
Simulation then, is about the level of preference and (drumroll) Free Will.
If something satisfies our expectation criteria of what it is intended to
substitute for, then we say it is a simulation. The mirage is an example of
how ephemeral and relative this really is. The mirage only passes for
simulating water to us, at a distance. Probably don't see a lot of insects
or plants fooled by convection optics. It's only a simulation in one sense
or set of senses. This is why AI simulation will fail to generate human
subjectivity, because it only looks like a human if you program it to play
Jeopardy or chess or drive a car, etc.
I agree with you that, in this regard, everything only has one best
simulation and that is itself. Only one instantiation of something can
fulfill all possible expectation criteria for interaction with that thing
for an indefinite period. I'm not sold on simulation being especially
useful as a cosmological feature, but I think that it has potential within
this Personal Range, and the bi-simulation is part of that. The personal
range is the primary range anyhow. The loss of voluntary participation in
the sub-personal, super-personal, and impersonal ranges coincides with the
decrease in the relevance of simulation, as the 'seems like' range of
direct relation gives way to the 'simply is' range of indirect (second
hand) perceptual inertia.
Craig
>
> --
> Onward!
>
> Stephen
>
>
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