Hi Bruno Marchal  

I think that dreams are the result of the mind's (not the brain's, as
the article cited below suggests) intelligence trying to make sense of 
body signals such as from muscle relaxation, etc.

In bringing up the subject of logical abduction (as well as autopoesis),
these seem to be forms of intelligence, since intelligence per se creates 
something new (as I see it) out of an existing situation.
Abduction comes to a conclusion which is a prediction not 
possibly arrived at by deduction. 

Abduction seems to be the heart and soul of intelligence
and being intelligence, seemingly a desirable comp activity.
In other words, comp as a form of artificial intelligence.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
11/7/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-11-07, 09:22:18 
Subject: Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality 


Hi Roger Clough, 


> My understanding is that qualia are subjective or 1-view, 
> while the realm of science is completely objective (3-view). 

I agree. A qualia, like the feeling of being convinced, or like the  
feeling of seeing the color red, is subjective (1p). 

But now the theory saying that a qualia is 1p, might very well be  
objective. 

Science cannot use subjective statements in a theory, but this does  
not prevent a theory to make statements on subjectivity. 

If not, you would make a confusion between a level and a meta-level. 
We can develop objective and even testable statements about  
subjectivity. 

For example, with comp, we can decode an 1p-dream from a brain 3p-  
analysis. 
This seems to have been partially tested: 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scientists-read-dreams&WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20121024
 

Bruno 



> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 11/6/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Bruno Marchal 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-11-06, 08:49:43 
> Subject: Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality 
> 
> 
> On 05 Nov 2012, at 20:03, Roger Clough wrote: 
> 
>> Hi meekerdb 
>> 
>> Love is a qualia and science cannot touch qualia. 
> 
> Science can touch everything. And assuming comp science can explain 
> why qualia are not scientific or communicable. they still remain real 
> phenomena on which science can say something, even if negative. 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>> 11/5/2012 
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>> From: meekerdb 
>> Receiver: everything-list 
>> Time: 2012-11-03, 21:28:12 
>> Subject: Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/3/2012 6:47 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> : Is there something that I could know to be the case, and which is 
>> not expressed by a proposition that could be part of some scientific 
>> theory?" 
>> 
>> 
>> Yes . "I love my mother" is some knowledge that I know , and is not 
>> part of a scientific theory. 
>> 
>> 
>> But could it be is the question. There could be a scientific theory 
>> that Alberto Corona loves his mother and you could know the theory. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> We know reality because we live in the reality, We do not 
>> approximate reality by theories. We directly know reality because we 
>> live within it. Our primary knowledge is intuitive, historic, 
>> direct.. It is _the_ reality. 
>> 
>> 
>> A theory is a second class of knowledge about a model that 
>> approximate reality, maybe upto a point of an isomorphism with some- 
>> part-of reality, but certainly, not an isomorphism that embraces the 
>> whole reality, because we could never know if we have modelized the 
>> entire reality, nether if this modelization is accurate. 
>> 
>> 
>> The legitimate usage of the models is to refine this intuitive 
>> knowledge. But at the worst, a model can negate our direct 
>> knowledge and try to create an alternative reality. In this case the 
>> theorist reclaim the model as the reality. Thus the 
>> theorist .reclaim a complete knowledge of reality. In this case the 
>> theorist is outside of science, even if it is within the science 
>> industry, and becomes a sort of gnostic preacher 
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, a model that includes everything is impossible (and not even 
>> useful), but it might still be that each thing you know is part of 
>> some model. 
>> 
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> 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
> 
> 
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