Hi Bruno Marchal 

Complexity can't (or at least need not) be a feature of Platonism, 
since all of those equations have already been solved or resolved from above. 

Complexity is simply an artifact produced by building up from below, without 
a clue as to what is present above (what is true) 

Complexity arises from the impossibility of reaching necessary reason 
starting with contingent reason.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/10/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-09, 09:58:55 
Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. 


On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:27, Roger Clough wrote: 

> Hi Bruno Marchal 
> 
> Am I wrong ? I don't think that "complexity" and Platonism 
> (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from 
> bottom-up 
> being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian 
> intellect gets stuck. 

Complexity arise in numbers due to the intrinsic relation between 
addition and multiplication, which notably makes possible computations 
and self-reference, and separate truth (God) from provability 
(intellect). 

Bruno 



> 
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
> 1/9/2013 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Bruno Marchal 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2013-01-09, 05:37:48 
> Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
> 
> 
> Le me add some meat here 
> 
> 
> We can not reduce the concept of God to a boring principle that we 
> need to put somewhere. Like a ugly furniture inherited from the 
> grand-parents which for its sentimental value we have to keep and 
> locate somewhere, so that the familly visits show that you are a 
> well educated and respectful person. God is like the refligerator. 
> if you drop the old one, you need another. Why? because religion -or 
> an extended notion of religion and divinity- is deeply embedded in 
> human nature. An objective study of God includes an explanation of 
> the subjective reality or the resulting description is incomplete. 
> if the reality is overall, mental and divinity a neccesity, then the 
> divinity is part of reality 
> 
> 
> For reasons that I detail below, God must be the absolute source of 
> meaning in all aspects. therefore it embodies the causation and 
> direction of what is "physical" as well as what is mental, personal 
> or moral and any else. Therefore, for the believer, God must be 
> personal, among other things, or else, the believer lacks a 
> foundation for the aspects that God does not includes. 
> 
> 
> As I tried to show in robotic Truth, religion is a neccesity for the 
> operation of social beings. 
> 
> 
> For all machines, actually. Even when isolated. the "robotic truth" 
> can be approached by introspection when the machine complexity is 
> above the L?ian threshold. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If there is no agreed meaning, that is, goals, there is no 
> inequivocal rules for social action. if there are no inequivocal 
> rules for social coordination, descoordination and internal 
> decomposition of the group follows. For that matter religion is the 
> core social instinct. it is as deeply embedded in social nature as 
> is other unique human traits, like the white in the eyes, another 
> social adaptation (facilitates the reading of the emotional states 
> and intentions of others). 
> 
> 
> Probably the first religion was a cult of the person of the recently 
> dead leader of the tribe that was an example and a guide to all the 
> other members by emulation. That's why by history and by neccesity a 
> god, must be personal . 
> 
> 
> A society with a impersonal Principle is full of smalller personal 
> gods in conflict, sometimes violent. Philosophers, Demagoges, 
> scientis, rock stars, Soccer clubs. This politheism becomes salient 
> and agressive when there is no personal God, or, at least, no Cesar 
> or Zeus that make clear who is the ultimate authority. A dialectic 
> materialist society need a Lenin and a Stalin because its impersonal 
> Principle is not personal. The abstract and incognoscible Allah need 
> a ruthless political Mahoma. 
> 
> 
> The cult to the blood, the leader and the territory. These are the 
> almost mathematically inexorable traits of the primitive tribal 
> religion that we have by default in the genes. In the origin, the 
> cult to the leader, the public rites, The bloody sacrifices, All are 
> devoted to strengthen coordination and ensure collaboration, and 
> mutual recognition between the members. And the sharp distinction 
> between us and the others. 
> 
> 
> A membrane separates the entity from the outside and defines an 
> living unit that perdures in time, be it a cell or a society, in the 
> latter case, the membrane is created by religion, the physical 
> territory and the blood ties. In this sense, primitive religion may 
> be exigent, very exigent and dangerous. The bloody mesoamerican 
> religions, which grew unchallenged during centuries, with his 
> pyramids of skulls illustrate how a primitive religion evolves in 
> itself when not absorbed or conquered by a superior civilization. 
> 
> 
> Hmm... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That? why the belief in a all transcendent God that created all men 
> at its image and dignity and incarnated in a person, Christ to 
> imitate, is the best use of this unavoidable and necessary part of 
> us called religion. In this sense, Christianity free us from the 
> obedience to the dictatorial earthly leaders, the bloody sacrifices, 
> the cult to the lebensraung (vital space) of the tribe , or the 
> supertribe, with its psycopathic treatment to "the others". 
> 
> 
> Because nihilism is unbearable except as a self-steem booster by 
> means of a self-exhibition of strength for a certain time, as the 
> young russians did in the early XX century. If hihilism would not 
> be painful it would not be a matter of exhibition. Sooner or later 
> the nihilist has to choose between the suicide, that has a perfect 
> evolutionary sense, since someone isolated, with no guide to help 
> others in society is a social burden, and suicide is the social 
> apoptosis, by means of which the social body re-absorb the useless. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or else the , guided by its simple instints and devoid of the 
> experience and traditions of the past, and therefore with no vaccine 
> for the recurrent errors of humanity, the unbeliever will reinvent 
> again and again the primitive cults to the earth the tiranic leader 
> and the blood. Of course with the fashionable decorations of our 
> time; Probably some eco-globalist-aborto-eugenesist cult with a 
> greath leader that would suspend our rights, for the good of 
> humanity and the planet, of course. 
> 
> 
> I agree partially. But the Christian have politicized religion, 
> where the greeks have succeeded in making it into a science, and 
> today we have not yet come back to the scientific attitude in those 
> matter. There is a strong resistance from fundamentalist atheists, 
> more numerous than I thought possible. European atheism seems 
> different than american atheism (which is often just agnosticism). 
> 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2013/1/8 John Clark 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
>> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree with that, one clearly had to come before the other. 
> Before some human invented God there was no need for another human 
> to invent atheism. 
> 
> John K Clark 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> -- 
> Alberto. 
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