Hi Bruno Marchal Complexity can't (or at least need not) be a feature of Platonism, since all of those equations have already been solved or resolved from above.
Complexity is simply an artifact produced by building up from below, without a clue as to what is present above (what is true) Complexity arises from the impossibility of reaching necessary reason starting with contingent reason. [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] 1/10/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-09, 09:58:55 Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:27, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Bruno Marchal > > Am I wrong ? I don't think that "complexity" and Platonism > (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from > bottom-up > being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian > intellect gets stuck. Complexity arise in numbers due to the intrinsic relation between addition and multiplication, which notably makes possible computations and self-reference, and separate truth (God) from provability (intellect). Bruno > > [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] > 1/9/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-09, 05:37:48 > Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. > > > > > On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > Le me add some meat here > > > We can not reduce the concept of God to a boring principle that we > need to put somewhere. Like a ugly furniture inherited from the > grand-parents which for its sentimental value we have to keep and > locate somewhere, so that the familly visits show that you are a > well educated and respectful person. God is like the refligerator. > if you drop the old one, you need another. Why? because religion -or > an extended notion of religion and divinity- is deeply embedded in > human nature. An objective study of God includes an explanation of > the subjective reality or the resulting description is incomplete. > if the reality is overall, mental and divinity a neccesity, then the > divinity is part of reality > > > For reasons that I detail below, God must be the absolute source of > meaning in all aspects. therefore it embodies the causation and > direction of what is "physical" as well as what is mental, personal > or moral and any else. Therefore, for the believer, God must be > personal, among other things, or else, the believer lacks a > foundation for the aspects that God does not includes. > > > As I tried to show in robotic Truth, religion is a neccesity for the > operation of social beings. > > > For all machines, actually. Even when isolated. the "robotic truth" > can be approached by introspection when the machine complexity is > above the L?ian threshold. > > > > > > > If there is no agreed meaning, that is, goals, there is no > inequivocal rules for social action. if there are no inequivocal > rules for social coordination, descoordination and internal > decomposition of the group follows. For that matter religion is the > core social instinct. it is as deeply embedded in social nature as > is other unique human traits, like the white in the eyes, another > social adaptation (facilitates the reading of the emotional states > and intentions of others). > > > Probably the first religion was a cult of the person of the recently > dead leader of the tribe that was an example and a guide to all the > other members by emulation. That's why by history and by neccesity a > god, must be personal . > > > A society with a impersonal Principle is full of smalller personal > gods in conflict, sometimes violent. Philosophers, Demagoges, > scientis, rock stars, Soccer clubs. This politheism becomes salient > and agressive when there is no personal God, or, at least, no Cesar > or Zeus that make clear who is the ultimate authority. A dialectic > materialist society need a Lenin and a Stalin because its impersonal > Principle is not personal. The abstract and incognoscible Allah need > a ruthless political Mahoma. > > > The cult to the blood, the leader and the territory. These are the > almost mathematically inexorable traits of the primitive tribal > religion that we have by default in the genes. In the origin, the > cult to the leader, the public rites, The bloody sacrifices, All are > devoted to strengthen coordination and ensure collaboration, and > mutual recognition between the members. And the sharp distinction > between us and the others. > > > A membrane separates the entity from the outside and defines an > living unit that perdures in time, be it a cell or a society, in the > latter case, the membrane is created by religion, the physical > territory and the blood ties. In this sense, primitive religion may > be exigent, very exigent and dangerous. The bloody mesoamerican > religions, which grew unchallenged during centuries, with his > pyramids of skulls illustrate how a primitive religion evolves in > itself when not absorbed or conquered by a superior civilization. > > > Hmm... > > > > > > > > > That? why the belief in a all transcendent God that created all men > at its image and dignity and incarnated in a person, Christ to > imitate, is the best use of this unavoidable and necessary part of > us called religion. In this sense, Christianity free us from the > obedience to the dictatorial earthly leaders, the bloody sacrifices, > the cult to the lebensraung (vital space) of the tribe , or the > supertribe, with its psycopathic treatment to "the others". > > > Because nihilism is unbearable except as a self-steem booster by > means of a self-exhibition of strength for a certain time, as the > young russians did in the early XX century. If hihilism would not > be painful it would not be a matter of exhibition. Sooner or later > the nihilist has to choose between the suicide, that has a perfect > evolutionary sense, since someone isolated, with no guide to help > others in society is a social burden, and suicide is the social > apoptosis, by means of which the social body re-absorb the useless. > > > > > Or else the , guided by its simple instints and devoid of the > experience and traditions of the past, and therefore with no vaccine > for the recurrent errors of humanity, the unbeliever will reinvent > again and again the primitive cults to the earth the tiranic leader > and the blood. Of course with the fashionable decorations of our > time; Probably some eco-globalist-aborto-eugenesist cult with a > greath leader that would suspend our rights, for the good of > humanity and the planet, of course. > > > I agree partially. But the Christian have politicized religion, > where the greeks have succeeded in making it into a science, and > today we have not yet come back to the scientific attitude in those > matter. There is a strong resistance from fundamentalist atheists, > more numerous than I thought possible. European atheism seems > different than american atheism (which is often just agnosticism). > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > > > 2013/1/8 John Clark > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > > > >> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. > > > Yes, I agree with that, one clearly had to come before the other. > Before some human invented God there was no need for another human > to invent atheism. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > > > > > > -- > Alberto. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
