Davies defines a threshold for consciousness based on biological and/or BEC complexity exceeding the comp capacity of the universe: 10^120 bits.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0703/0703041.pdf On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Bruno Marchal > > Complexity can't (or at least need not) be a feature of Platonism, > since all of those equations have already been solved or resolved from > above. > > Complexity is simply an artifact produced by building up from below, without > a clue as to what is present above (what is true) > > Complexity arises from the impossibility of reaching necessary reason > starting with contingent reason. > > > [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] > 1/10/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-09, 09:58:55 > Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. > > > On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:27, Roger Clough wrote: > >> Hi Bruno Marchal >> >> Am I wrong ? I don't think that "complexity" and Platonism >> (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from >> bottom-up >> being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian >> intellect gets stuck. > > Complexity arise in numbers due to the intrinsic relation between > addition and multiplication, which notably makes possible computations > and self-reference, and separate truth (God) from provability > (intellect). > > Bruno > > > >> >> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] >> 1/9/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >> From: Bruno Marchal >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2013-01-09, 05:37:48 >> Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. >> >> >> >> >> On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> >> Le me add some meat here >> >> >> We can not reduce the concept of God to a boring principle that we >> need to put somewhere. Like a ugly furniture inherited from the >> grand-parents which for its sentimental value we have to keep and >> locate somewhere, so that the familly visits show that you are a >> well educated and respectful person. God is like the refligerator. >> if you drop the old one, you need another. Why? because religion -or >> an extended notion of religion and divinity- is deeply embedded in >> human nature. An objective study of God includes an explanation of >> the subjective reality or the resulting description is incomplete. >> if the reality is overall, mental and divinity a neccesity, then the >> divinity is part of reality >> >> >> For reasons that I detail below, God must be the absolute source of >> meaning in all aspects. therefore it embodies the causation and >> direction of what is "physical" as well as what is mental, personal >> or moral and any else. Therefore, for the believer, God must be >> personal, among other things, or else, the believer lacks a >> foundation for the aspects that God does not includes. >> >> >> As I tried to show in robotic Truth, religion is a neccesity for the >> operation of social beings. >> >> >> For all machines, actually. Even when isolated. the "robotic truth" >> can be approached by introspection when the machine complexity is >> above the L?ian threshold. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If there is no agreed meaning, that is, goals, there is no >> inequivocal rules for social action. if there are no inequivocal >> rules for social coordination, descoordination and internal >> decomposition of the group follows. For that matter religion is the >> core social instinct. it is as deeply embedded in social nature as >> is other unique human traits, like the white in the eyes, another >> social adaptation (facilitates the reading of the emotional states >> and intentions of others). >> >> >> Probably the first religion was a cult of the person of the recently >> dead leader of the tribe that was an example and a guide to all the >> other members by emulation. That's why by history and by neccesity a >> god, must be personal . >> >> >> A society with a impersonal Principle is full of smalller personal >> gods in conflict, sometimes violent. Philosophers, Demagoges, >> scientis, rock stars, Soccer clubs. This politheism becomes salient >> and agressive when there is no personal God, or, at least, no Cesar >> or Zeus that make clear who is the ultimate authority. A dialectic >> materialist society need a Lenin and a Stalin because its impersonal >> Principle is not personal. The abstract and incognoscible Allah need >> a ruthless political Mahoma. >> >> >> The cult to the blood, the leader and the territory. These are the >> almost mathematically inexorable traits of the primitive tribal >> religion that we have by default in the genes. In the origin, the >> cult to the leader, the public rites, The bloody sacrifices, All are >> devoted to strengthen coordination and ensure collaboration, and >> mutual recognition between the members. And the sharp distinction >> between us and the others. >> >> >> A membrane separates the entity from the outside and defines an >> living unit that perdures in time, be it a cell or a society, in the >> latter case, the membrane is created by religion, the physical >> territory and the blood ties. In this sense, primitive religion may >> be exigent, very exigent and dangerous. The bloody mesoamerican >> religions, which grew unchallenged during centuries, with his >> pyramids of skulls illustrate how a primitive religion evolves in >> itself when not absorbed or conquered by a superior civilization. >> >> >> Hmm... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> That? why the belief in a all transcendent God that created all men >> at its image and dignity and incarnated in a person, Christ to >> imitate, is the best use of this unavoidable and necessary part of >> us called religion. In this sense, Christianity free us from the >> obedience to the dictatorial earthly leaders, the bloody sacrifices, >> the cult to the lebensraung (vital space) of the tribe , or the >> supertribe, with its psycopathic treatment to "the others". >> >> >> Because nihilism is unbearable except as a self-steem booster by >> means of a self-exhibition of strength for a certain time, as the >> young russians did in the early XX century. If hihilism would not >> be painful it would not be a matter of exhibition. Sooner or later >> the nihilist has to choose between the suicide, that has a perfect >> evolutionary sense, since someone isolated, with no guide to help >> others in society is a social burden, and suicide is the social >> apoptosis, by means of which the social body re-absorb the useless. >> >> >> >> >> Or else the , guided by its simple instints and devoid of the >> experience and traditions of the past, and therefore with no vaccine >> for the recurrent errors of humanity, the unbeliever will reinvent >> again and again the primitive cults to the earth the tiranic leader >> and the blood. Of course with the fashionable decorations of our >> time; Probably some eco-globalist-aborto-eugenesist cult with a >> greath leader that would suspend our rights, for the good of >> humanity and the planet, of course. >> >> >> I agree partially. But the Christian have politicized religion, >> where the greeks have succeeded in making it into a science, and >> today we have not yet come back to the scientific attitude in those >> matter. There is a strong resistance from fundamentalist atheists, >> more numerous than I thought possible. European atheism seems >> different than american atheism (which is often just agnosticism). >> >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2013/1/8 John Clark >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >> >> >> >>> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. >> >> >> Yes, I agree with that, one clearly had to come before the other. >> Before some human invented God there was no need for another human >> to invent atheism. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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