Davies defines a threshold for consciousness
based on biological and/or BEC complexity
exceeding the comp capacity
of the universe:
10^120 bits.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0703/0703041.pdf

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Complexity can't (or at least need not) be a feature of Platonism,
> since all of those equations have already been solved or resolved from
> above.
>
> Complexity is simply an artifact produced by building up from below, without
> a clue as to what is present above (what is true)
>
> Complexity arises from the impossibility of reaching necessary reason
> starting with contingent reason.
>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
> 1/10/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2013-01-09, 09:58:55
> Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
>
>
> On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:27, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruno Marchal
>>
>> Am I wrong ? I don't think that "complexity" and Platonism
>> (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from
>> bottom-up
>> being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian
>> intellect gets stuck.
>
> Complexity arise in numbers due to the intrinsic relation between
> addition and multiplication, which notably makes possible computations
> and self-reference, and separate truth (God) from provability
> (intellect).
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>>
>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
>> 1/9/2013
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> From: Bruno Marchal
>> Receiver: everything-list
>> Time: 2013-01-09, 05:37:48
>> Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le me add some meat here
>>
>>
>> We can not reduce the concept of God to a boring principle that we
>> need to put somewhere. Like a ugly furniture inherited from the
>> grand-parents which for its sentimental value we have to keep and
>> locate somewhere, so that the familly visits show that you are a
>> well educated and respectful person. God is like the refligerator.
>> if you drop the old one, you need another. Why? because religion -or
>> an extended notion of religion and divinity- is deeply embedded in
>> human nature. An objective study of God includes an explanation of
>> the subjective reality or the resulting description is incomplete.
>> if the reality is overall, mental and divinity a neccesity, then the
>> divinity is part of reality
>>
>>
>> For reasons that I detail below, God must be the absolute source of
>> meaning in all aspects. therefore it embodies the causation and
>> direction of what is "physical" as well as what is mental, personal
>> or moral and any else. Therefore, for the believer, God must be
>> personal, among other things, or else, the believer lacks a
>> foundation for the aspects that God does not includes.
>>
>>
>> As I tried to show in robotic Truth, religion is a neccesity for the
>> operation of social beings.
>>
>>
>> For all machines, actually. Even when isolated. the "robotic truth"
>> can be approached by introspection when the machine complexity is
>> above the L?ian threshold.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If there is no agreed meaning, that is, goals, there is no
>> inequivocal rules for social action. if there are no inequivocal
>> rules for social coordination, descoordination and internal
>> decomposition of the group follows. For that matter religion is the
>> core social instinct. it is as deeply embedded in social nature as
>> is other unique human traits, like the white in the eyes, another
>> social adaptation (facilitates the reading of the emotional states
>> and intentions of others).
>>
>>
>> Probably the first religion was a cult of the person of the recently
>> dead leader of the tribe that was an example and a guide to all the
>> other members by emulation. That's why by history and by neccesity a
>> god, must be personal .
>>
>>
>> A society with a impersonal Principle is full of smalller personal
>> gods in conflict, sometimes violent. Philosophers, Demagoges,
>> scientis, rock stars, Soccer clubs. This politheism becomes salient
>> and agressive when there is no personal God, or, at least, no Cesar
>> or Zeus that make clear who is the ultimate authority. A dialectic
>> materialist society need a Lenin and a Stalin because its impersonal
>> Principle is not personal. The abstract and incognoscible Allah need
>> a ruthless political Mahoma.
>>
>>
>> The cult to the blood, the leader and the territory. These are the
>> almost mathematically inexorable traits of the primitive tribal
>> religion that we have by default in the genes. In the origin, the
>> cult to the leader, the public rites, The bloody sacrifices, All are
>> devoted to strengthen coordination and ensure collaboration, and
>> mutual recognition between the members. And the sharp distinction
>> between us and the others.
>>
>>
>> A membrane separates the entity from the outside and defines an
>> living unit that perdures in time, be it a cell or a society, in the
>> latter case, the membrane is created by religion, the physical
>> territory and the blood ties. In this sense, primitive religion may
>> be exigent, very exigent and dangerous. The bloody mesoamerican
>> religions, which grew unchallenged during centuries, with his
>> pyramids of skulls illustrate how a primitive religion evolves in
>> itself when not absorbed or conquered by a superior civilization.
>>
>>
>> Hmm...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That? why the belief in a all transcendent God that created all men
>> at its image and dignity and incarnated in a person, Christ to
>> imitate, is the best use of this unavoidable and necessary part of
>> us called religion. In this sense, Christianity free us from the
>> obedience to the dictatorial earthly leaders, the bloody sacrifices,
>> the cult to the lebensraung (vital space) of the tribe , or the
>> supertribe, with its psycopathic treatment to "the others".
>>
>>
>> Because nihilism is unbearable except as a self-steem booster by
>> means of a self-exhibition of strength for a certain time, as the
>> young russians did in the early XX century. If hihilism would not
>> be painful it would not be a matter of exhibition. Sooner or later
>> the nihilist has to choose between the suicide, that has a perfect
>> evolutionary sense, since someone isolated, with no guide to help
>> others in society is a social burden, and suicide is the social
>> apoptosis, by means of which the social body re-absorb the useless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Or else the , guided by its simple instints and devoid of the
>> experience and traditions of the past, and therefore with no vaccine
>> for the recurrent errors of humanity, the unbeliever will reinvent
>> again and again the primitive cults to the earth the tiranic leader
>> and the blood. Of course with the fashionable decorations of our
>> time; Probably some eco-globalist-aborto-eugenesist cult with a
>> greath leader that would suspend our rights, for the good of
>> humanity and the planet, of course.
>>
>>
>> I agree partially. But the Christian have politicized religion,
>> where the greeks have succeeded in making it into a science, and
>> today we have not yet come back to the scientific attitude in those
>> matter. There is a strong resistance from fundamentalist atheists,
>> more numerous than I thought possible. European atheism seems
>> different than american atheism (which is often just agnosticism).
>>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/1/8 John Clark
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree with that, one clearly had to come before the other.
>> Before some human invented God there was no need for another human
>> to invent atheism.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alberto.
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
>> .
>>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

Reply via email to