On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 2, 2013 6:05:53 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: >> >> Hi Roger, >> >> I don't really understand how people can object to the idea of >> physical/mechanical intelligence now that we live in a world where we're >> surrounded by it. Google searches, computers that can beat the best human >> chess player, autonomous rovers in Mars, face recognition, automatic stock >> traders that are better at it than any human being and so on and so on. >> > > When you don't understand what you are doing, it it easy to do it very > fast. This writer gives a good explanation: > http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-minds-are-not-like-computers > Many AI algorithms are intrinsically slow. Most of the examples I've given are made possible by parallelising large amounts of computers. They will never understand in the sense you mean unless they have a 1p, but I don't see how that relates to speed or how speed is relevante here. Also I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. > >> Every time AI comes up with something that only humans could do, people >> say "oh right, but that's not intelligence - I bet computer will never be >> able to do X". And then they do. And then people say the same thing. It's >> just a bias we have, a need to feel special. >> > > Have you considered that it is a bias you have, to make you feel special, > to be able to say that you are above their bias? > I have and it might be true. > > >> >> WIth all due respect to Leibniz, he didn't know computer science. >> > > An argument can be made that Leibniz is the inventor of computer science, > particularly AI. http://history-computer.com/Dreamers/Leibniz.html > I honestly had no idea and I'm impressed (and ashamed for not knowing). > > > Craig > > >> >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi socr...@bezeqint.net and Craig, and all, >>> >>> How can intelligence be physical ? How can meaning be physical ? >>> How can thinking be physical ? How can knowing be physical ? >>> How can life or consciousness or free will be physical ? >>> >>> IMHO You need to consider what is really going on: >>> >>> http://plato.stanford.edu/**entries/leibniz-mind/<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-mind/> >>> >>> One is obliged to admit that *perception* and what depends upon it is >>> *inexplicable >>> on mechanical principles*, that is, by figures and motions. In >>> imagining that there is a machine whose construction would enable it to >>> think, to sense, and to have perception, one could conceive it enlarged >>> while retaining the same proportions, so that one could enter into it, just >>> like into a windmill. Supposing this, one should, when visiting within it, >>> find only parts pushing one another, and never anything by which to explain >>> a perception. Thus it is in the simple substance, and not in the composite >>> or in the machine, that one must look for perception. >>> >>> Leibniz's argument seems to be this: the visitor of the machine, upon >>> entering it, would observe nothing but the properties of the parts, and the >>> relations they bear to one another. But no explanation of perception, or >>> consciousness, can possibly be deduced from this conglomerate. No matter >>> how complex the inner workings of this machine, nothing about them reveals >>> that what is being observed are the inner workings of a conscious being. >>> Hence, materialism must be false, for there is no possible way that the >>> purely mechanical principles of materialism can account for the phenomena >>> of consciousness. >>> >>> In other writings, Leibniz suggests exactly what characteristic it is of >>> perception and consciousness that the mechanical principles of materialism >>> cannot account for. The following passages, the first from the *New >>> System of Nature* (1695), the second from the *Reply to Bayle* (1702), >>> are revealing in this regard: >>> >>> Furthermore, by means of the soul or form, there is a true unity which >>> corresponds to what is called the *I* in us; such a thing could not >>> occur in artificial machines, nor in the simple mass of matter, however >>> organized it may be. >>> >>> But in addition to the general principles which establish the monads of >>> which compound things are merely the results, internal experience refutes >>> the Epicurean [i.e. materialist] doctrine. This experience is the >>> consciousness which is in us of this *I* which apperceives things which >>> occur in the body. This perception cannot be explained by figures and >>> movements. >>> >>> Leibniz's point is that whatever is the subject of perception and >>> consciousness must be truly one, a single “I” properly regarded as >>> *one*conscious being. An aggregate of matter is not truly one and so cannot >>> be >>> regarded as a single *I*, capable of being the subject of a unified >>> mental life. This interpretation fits nicely with Lebniz's oft-repeated >>> definition of perception as “the representation in the simple of the >>> compound, or of that which is outside” (*Principles of Nature and Grace, >>> * sec.2 (1714)). More explicitly, in a letter to Antoine Arnauld of 9 >>> October 1687, Leibniz wrote that “in natural perception and sensation, it >>> is enough for what is divisible and material and dispersed into many >>> entities to be expressed or represented in a single indivisible entity or >>> in a substance which is endowed with genuine unity.” If perception (and >>> hence, consciousness) essentially involves a representation of a variety of >>> content in a simple, indivisible “I,” then we may construct Leibniz's >>> argument against materialism as follows: Materialism holds that matter can >>> explain (is identical with, can give rise to) perception. A perception is a >>> state whereby a variety of content is represented in a true unity. Thus, >>> whatever is not a true unity cannot give rise to perception. Whatever is >>> divisible is not a true unity. Matter is infinitely divisible. Hence, >>> matter cannot form a true unity. Hence, matter cannot explain (be identical >>> with, give rise to) perception. If matter cannot explain (be identical to, >>> give rise to) perception, then materialism is false. Hence, materialism is >>> false. >>> >>> Leibniz rejected materialism on the grounds that it could not, in >>> principle, ever capture the “true unity” of perceptual consciousness, that >>> characteristic of the self which can simultaneously unify a manifoldness of >>> perceptual content. If this is Leibniz's argument, it is of some historical >>> interest that it bears striking resemblances to contemporary objections to >>> certain materialist theories of mind. Many contemporary philosophers have >>> objected to some versions of materialism on the basis of thought >>> experiments like Leibniz's: experiments designed to show that qualia and >>> consciousness are bound to elude certain materialist conceptions of the >>> mind (cf. Searle 1980; Nagel 1974; McGinn 1989; Jackson 1982). >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> *From:* socra...@bezeqint.net >>> *Receiver:* Everything List >>> *Time:* 2013-02-02, 01:39:35 >>> *Subject:* Re: Science is a religion by itself. >>> >>> On Feb 1, 7:51爌m, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:26:43 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: >>> > >>> > > 燞i socr...@bezeqint.net <javascript:> >>> > >>> > > Feynman was wrong. 燣ife isn't physics, >>> > > it's intelligence or consciousness, free will. >>> > >>> > If we understand that physics is actually experience, then life, >>> > intelligence, consciousness, free will, qualia, etc are all physics. >>> How >>> > could it really be otherwise? >>> > >>> > Craig >>> ====== >>> >>> In the name of reason and common sense: >>> How could it really be otherwise? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.**com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en.<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.> >>> For more options, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out.<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**______________ >>> *DreamMail* - New experience in email software www.dreammail.org >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-li...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> For more options, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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