Hi Bruno Marchal 

Again you are miscontruing Plato's idea or form, which is potential, as matter, 
which is actual.
Not only that, but matter must be created by a creator in Platonism. So 
altogether
we have form, matter, and creator.

According to this, quanta are not physical states, they are just mathematical 
constructions, ideas or blueprints.
They only become physical when the wavicle (what Plato called an idea
or form) collapses and becomes a particle or whatever. 

As verification, here's an account of Plato's version of creation taken from 
the Timeaus:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/#PlaPuz

"The Timaeus is also famous for its account of the creation of the universe by 
the Demiurge [a creator, ie collapser of the wavicles]. 
Unlike the creation by the God of medieval theologians, Plato抯 Demiurge does 
not create ex nihilo, but rather 
orders the cosmos out of chaotic elemental matter, imitating the eternal Forms 
[or quanta or wavicles]. Plato takes the 
four elements, fire, air, water, and earth (which Plato proclaims to be 
composed of various aggregates of 
triangles [or wavicles, forms or quanta] ), making various compounds of these 
into what he calls the Body of the 
Universe [matter]. 

Of all of Plato抯 works, the Timaeus provides the most detailed conjectures in 
the areas we now regard as the 
natural sciences: physics, astronomy, chemistry, and biology.
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-02-04, 11:43:07
Subject: Re: multiverses and quantum computers




On 01 Feb 2013, at 19:26, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno,

I can't see that superposition of states is any more magical
in one universe than, say, multiple roots to an equation, or imaginary
numbers. What matters is whether they are true states or not.
And truth is not magical.


Agreed.
But truth becomes magical when you require that a true state has to be a 
physical state.


There are numbers, and just by virtue of obeying the laws of addition and 
multiplication, due to an intrinsic misunderstanding between the additive realm 
and the multiplicative realm, universal numbers cannot not exist and they 
introduced an incredible mess in platonia. 


I agree that the superposition of states is no more magical than the many roots 
of an equation.


Bt there is a difference, which is that if comp is true, what we take as 
physical, both the particles and their superposition states, comes from an 
earlier (arithmetically earlier, with shorter proofs) from the fact that each 
first person determined by a relative universal numbers states, is associated 
to all computations going through that states.


So particles and their superposition are entirely phenomenal, but in stable and 
sharable fashion, apparently, for the "measure-winning" universal numbers.


A brain is a Hubble telescope, in arithmetic, to explore the unboundable 
richness of arithmetic when seen from inside, from many possible perspectives.


We must be humble. Today, as far as we "know", assuming comp, the physical 
universe might still be only a failed attempt by God to solve a fourth degree 
diophantine polynomials.
But OK, the resemblance with Plotinus' system suggests it can also be more than 
that.


There are tuns of open problems. The weakness of comp, is that the interesting 
question, using the simplest definitions, leads to very hard problem in math. 
But the contrary would have been astonishing. There is no reason that the 
theological reality is "simple", especially with a brain which seems to filter 
a part of the truth, for apparently both logical and evolution based "reason". 
And there is an abyss of complexity between those two kind of reasons.


Bruno











----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Telmo Menezes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-02-01, 03:46:32
Subject: Re: multiverses and quantum computers


Hi Bruno,




On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:15 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:



On 31 Jan 2013, at 15:15, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Telmo Menezes 
 
Perhaps you're right, but to my limited knowledge, 
a quantum has infinite paths available between
points A and B without invoking another universe.


Once we are able to use (classical) information obtained in the other quantum 
paths, like when doing a Fourier transform on  some superposition of many 
computations, like in a quantum computer, what makes them different of other 
universes?


The superposition of many computations itself. Superposition of states on a 
same universe are a bit hard to swallow. I think people reject the idea of a 
multiverse because it sounds loony, but my understanding is that making QM 
consistent with a single universe requires magical thinking. It's the same as 
saying that consciousness emerges from neural activity. People overlook the 
magical step because they are more confortable with the resulting model. 
 


Bruno






So no problem.
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Telmo Menezes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-31, 08:13:30
Subject: Re: Re: About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space


Hi Roger, 


In the one universe model, where does the extra computational power of quantum 
computers come from?



On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Telmo Menezes 
 
IMHO more than one universe is unjustified.
 
 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Telmo Menezes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-30, 12:10:08
Subject: Re: About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space


Hi Roger, 


I find it harder to believe in finite universes. Why the precise number, 
whatever it is?



On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Stephen P. King 
It's easier to believe in salvation through faith or UFOs than infinite 
universes.
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Stephen P. King 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-28, 09:20:33
Subject: About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space


Hi,

? I think this paper might be fodder for a nice discussion! 


http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.5295


About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space
Francisco Jos Soler Gil, Manuel Alfonseca
(Submitted on 22 Jan 2013 (v1), last revised 23 Jan 2013 (this version, v2))
This paper analyzes two different proposals, one by Ellis and Brundrit, based 
on classical relativistic cosmology, the other by Garriga and Vilenkin, based 
on the DH interpretation of quantum mechanics, both of which conclude that, in 
an infinite universe, planets and living beings must be repeated an infinite 
number of times. We point to some possible shortcomings in the arguments of 
these authors. We conclude that the idea of an infinite repetition of histories 
in space cannot be considered strictly speaking a consequence of current 
physics and cosmology. Such ideas should be seen rather as examples of 
{\guillemotleft}ironic science{\guillemotright} in the terminology of John 
Horgan.


-- 
Onward!

Stephen
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