On 05 Feb 2013, at 18:03, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Before you can arrive at a TOE you need to be
able to define what "everything" means.

I distinguish the ontological everything (all the natural numbers), from the everything "epistemological" or better imo, "theological", which includes the physical, and which corresponds to the possible relative numbers beliefs, some of them are stable and defines physical realities, others are less stable, etc.



Your responses indicate that "everything" to you
means the world of mechanism. No ?


Not really, because comp makes arithmetic, as seen from inside, bigger than anything we can conceive. That is also why from the numbers pov, things appear as theological.

All machines are eventually confronted with many non mechanical, yet existing from their pov, entities. A bit like to study the distribution of the "digital" prime numbers, you need to consider the continuum of the complex numbers (cf Riemann). That is a general phenomenon, that the logicians have proved to be necessary in principle.

Bruno






----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-05, 11:18:49
Subject: Re: context, comp, and multiverses


On 05 Feb 2013, at 16:44, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

If comp is assumed, then we need not worry about consequences of emulation,
it's a given that it works.

Then what is the purpose of this discussion ?

To get a theory of everything. To figure out why and how physical realities appears, and what is the nature of consciousness, etc.

My main point is that the lasting Aristotelian picture is not compatible with computationalism, and that it is compatible with Plato and the most common mystics attempts to figure out what is.

Bruno







----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-05, 07:32:01
Subject: Re: context, comp, and multiverses

Hi Roger,

On 04 Feb 2013, at 16:43, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Brunio,

I agree with Craig. And I've never understood how there can be any consequence of an emulation, or how it can be proven or not that comp works, since no comparison can be made.

If comp is true, then we can explain why we cannot prove it.
But we can refute it, because comp explains the details about what the physical reality can be. So to test comp, just compare the physics inferred from the emprical reality, and the comp physics.




Without meaning to be insulting, in short, I say, OK, it's Turing emulable. So what ?

So the TOE is given by addition and multiplication on the integers, and the global internal views of all creatures is given by Plato and Plotinus, not by Aristotle and the naturalists. It means that rational theology is wrong since the closure of Plato academy. In a nutshell.

Of course you have to study UDA to grasp this.

Bruno





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From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-04, 09:59:09
Subject: Re: context, comp, and multiverses




On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com > wrote:


On Sunday, February 3, 2013 12:11:17 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 01 Feb 2013, at 16:42, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal
I would think that each universe provides its own distinctive
context to any燾alculation, including comp.

Comp is the assumption that we are Turing emulable.
That notion is made very solid by Church's thesis.


I don't think that we can assume that a Turing emulation of us is actually "us". To the contrary, a Turing emulation of geometry is not geometry. A Turing emulation of water can be the same as a Turing emulation of water in another Turing emulated virtual world, but no emulated drop of Turing water can ever be a genuine drop of water within the world that we actually live in. It doesn't matter that 17 is still prime when you are dying of dehydration.

Hi Craig,

Still trying to understand your theory better. What's your position on the following statements:

- The human brain can be Turing emulated.

- There is some (possibly mysterious) link between the physical human brain and consciousness.




Craig

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