On 06 Feb 2013, at 16:02, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/2/6 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
On 05 Feb 2013, at 19:04, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/2/5 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
On 05 Feb 2013, at 18:10, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/2/5 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
On 05 Feb 2013, at 14:34, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi meekerdb
There's nothing wrong with science as science.
But a problem arises when you apply the results to theology.
Two completely different worlds.
That's indeed a point where string atheists agree with string
christian. Let us try to be not serious on theology, so we can
assert the fairy tales. Strong Christian are happy because they
feel like they can contradict the scientific evidences, and the
atheists are happy so they can continue to mock the christians,
and continue to sleep on their own (materialist) dogma.
You put meaning in atheism which is not there... an atheist can
perfectly be an idealist... materialism is not part of the
definition of atheism.
Definition here are often contradictory. Some years ago, the
definition keep changing.
Can you give me the name of an atheist who is idealist?
I would say I am. Computationalism is a sort of idealistic monism.
Perhaps. But you have still to assume enough of arithmetical truth,
which plays the role of Plotinus' ONE, that is Plato Parmenidian
God. So you believe in God in the greek and/or comp general sense of
the term
Maybe but that term is misleading, god as understood by 99% of the
population is a being/person, platonic ONE is not,
For Poltinus, this is almost an open and difficult question. And
Plotinus called it "the father, God, the ONE", insisting that any name
was misleading.
But the christian God is very close to the Plotinian one, so among all
christians, the atheists are the most wrong on it.
neither is the platonic demiurge. As I said in an earlir post, I do
believe in some sort of reality "maker". But I do not believe in any
"personified" god/godlike force.
There is no problem, and in science we make clear of the meaning of
each term.
But when you talk to religious zealot, saying you're agnostic, means
to them you didn't yet choose their god.... I don't believe in any
god understood as the current shared meaning of 99% of the
population on earth.
99% ? Not even in Occident. And I know a lot of Christians which
are ... buddhist, simultaneously. In fact, I know the kind of
Christians describe by amercian atheists only through indirect
informations.
So you'd better use One
Not really. See how Clark reacted to it. Then scholars reacts much
badly, as the ONE is a technical Plotinian term, so we can't use with
a sense as general as the oroginal sense used by the greeks, but also
by the philosophers (who even coined the term "philosophical God").
or other word to mean your "god in the greek and/or comp general
sense". Using the god word is only misleading,
and will lead reader to misunderstand what you're saying (same thing
with theology).
I have explained all the comp results without ever using the word God,
nor "theology", for 20 years. But that works was dismissed by atheists
as being theology. They dismissed even AI as theology! That is what
decided me to use the term "theology", and since then I have read many
theologians, including many christians. they are quite rational, and
the level of rigor has astonished me. Christian theologians are not
literalist, and the relation between christian theology are very
clear, and ponder on questions that most consider open.
Anyway, the kind of string atheist nearby get stuck once they get near
the point that comp is not weakly materialist, and react like dogmatic
priests. Also, I always use the more common term.
I recommend the reading of "Return to the ONE, Plotinus guide to God-
realization". That works shiows, implicitly how the Abramanic notion
of God is quite related to the Greek Theology. You can almost just
subtract matter and the fairy tales from them to get the original
theory. Using new words can only seem preposterous, or even arrogant.
Everyone, except some atheists, can understand that when we talk about
reincarnation, afterlife, absolute ultimate reality, etc, we are doing
some kind of theology. Abandoning the name of a field to those who get
wrong and/or dogmatic can only prolongate the misunderstanding. I think.
Best,
Bruno
Regards,
Quentin
(something responsible for our existence, or ultimate reality, etc.).
Also, it is misleading to describe comp as idealism. Idealism makes
all of reality a product of the mind, which in comp is defined in
term of number relation that we have to assume at the start. So when
we assume arithmetic, we cannot assume it to be a product of the
mind, given that we need arithmetic to define the mind.
Bruno
Bruno
Quoting wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
"Metaphysical atheism... includes all doctrines that hold to
metaphysical monism (the homogeneity of reality). Metaphysical
atheism may be either:
a) absolute — an explicit denial of God's existence associated
with materialistic monism (all materialistic trends, both in
ancient and modern times);
b) relative — the implicit denial of God in all philosophies that,
while they accept the existence of an absolute, conceive of the
absolute as not possessing any of the attributes proper to God:
transcendence, a personal character or unity. Relative atheism is
associated with idealistic monism (pantheism, panentheism, deism)."
Regards,
Quentin
Quentin
That does not give much place for the genuine inquiry, I think.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: meekerdb
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-04, 13:48:50
Subject: Re: Topical combination
On 2/4/2013 7:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 03 Feb 2013, at 12:30, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi John Mikes
�
It says
�
"The Fabric of Eternity is the author's personal view of the
Universe that allows for science and theology to explore the
wonders of creation in peaceful unison.'
�
IMHO that is completely misguided, because the worlds they
understand燼re separate magisteria, to use�
Stephan Jay Gould's phrase.� Science deals with the physical
world, and theology deals with
the nonphysical world.
Only an Aristotelian can say "science deals with the physical
world". This sums up physicalism.
A Platonist says that science is just the modest tool/method to
deal with any subject.
Except it was Plato who thought he could understand the world by
just thinking about it, while it was Aristotle who went out to
observe and let the world teach him.� So who was modest and who
was arrogant?
Brent
Allowing the abandon of science in the theological field can
only be an invitation to the bad faith in there, and to the
"don't ask" mentality.
Bruno
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