On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:55:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 05 Feb 2013, at 11:19, Simon Forman wrote:
>
> On Monday, February 4, 2013 12:22:53 PM UTC-8, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, February 4, 2013 3:09:16 PM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> but there is a self reference when we try to imagine how the brain or a 
>>> computer process geometry, and we imagine them embedded in the space and 
>>> time that they create, which is not a correct intuition. we must imagine it 
>>> in no time and no space. IMHO.
>>>
>>
>> That's what I think too, geometry without space isn't geometry, so that 
>> there is no reason to assume that mathematics produces geometric 
>> presentations, or that it could possibly produce them. If we want 
>> mathematics to occupy space, we have to pull that possibility out of thin 
>> air, as well as the capacity for numbers to suddenly do that (and why would 
>> they need to?)
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>
> Doesn't the quantum physical reality of information mean that all math 
> *is* geometry?
>
> Put another way, math without a substratum would be in some platonic 
> world, and not the real one, 
>
>
> How do you know that? See the paper below(*) for an argument showing that 
> if we are machine, then the physical reality is *only* emergent from 
> arithmetic. Moon and stars are coherent "number's dream", and this can be 
> tested. So if you want a material substratum, you need to assume that you 
> and your brain are not Turing emulable.
>
> (*) 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
>

I'm just talking about geometric presentations though. If we accept that 
Moon and stars are coherent "number's dreams", then why are they not 
presented that way, but instead, as a-signifying shape relations? Where 
does the shapeness come from?

Craig

>
> Bruno
>
> so aren't you basically asking if there's some way to do math without form?
>
> Forgive me if I'm being an idoit. ;)
>
> ~Simon
>
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