On 07 Feb 2013, at 00:12, Simon Forman wrote:

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On 2/6/13, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:On 05 Feb 2013, at 11:19, Simon Forman wrote:On Monday, February 4, 2013 12:22:53 PM UTC-8, Craig Weinberg wrote:On Monday, February 4, 2013 3:09:16 PM UTC-5, Alberto G.Coronawrote:but there is a self reference when we try to imagine how the brain or a computer process geometry, and we imagine them embedded in the space and time that they create, which is not a correct intuition. we must imagine it in no time and no space. IMHO. That's what I think too, geometry without space isn't geometry, so that there is no reason to assume that mathematics produces geometric presentations, or that it could possibly produce them. If we want mathematics to occupy space, we have to pull that possibility out of thin air, as well as the capacity for numbers to suddenly do that (and why would they need to?) Craig Doesn't the quantum physical reality of information mean that all math *is* geometry? Put another way, math without a substratum would be in some platonic world, and not the real one,How do you know that? See the paper below(*) for an argument showing that if we are machine, then the physical reality is *only* emergent from arithmetic. Moon and stars are coherent "number's dream", and this can be tested. So if you want a material substratum, you need to assume that you and your brain are not Turing emulable. (*) http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html BrunoThat paper is fascinating. If I can understand it and come up with anything to say I will. :) Thank you for sharing it.

`Thanks for saying. If you can't understand it, don't hesitate to ask`

`any question.`

`The first part (the UDA, Universal Dovetailer Argument) requires only`

`some passive understanding of elementary computer science, and it`

`makes the main point. The second part requires some knowledge in`

`mathematical logic. It makes the same point, more constructively, and`

`in a language accessible to all sufficiently rich (LĂ¶bian) universal`

`machine.`

Bruno

~Simon --"The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather likethat ofan imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while theprison thatrestrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking butincorporating thecrackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruousdreams, thanlike that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity." --H. P.Wells, "A Short History of the World" --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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