Dear Bruno, 

I would like to know what 'doxastic models of consciousness' means, as well 
as what means "S4Grz" - I know Craig was the one who originally used the 
term 'doxastic models' but you seemed to know right away what that meant, 
so I'd like to know from your perspective what it means; moreover, I want 
to know S4Grz or be pointed towards an advanced level logic book so I can 
understand what that means. 

Finally, as a simple confirmation, I do assume that when you guys talk 
about Bp & p you mean the literal proposition "someone believes p & it is 
the case that it is p" -- if I don't get at least that, I should hang up my 
hat around here!

Cheers,

Dan

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:56:05 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 12 Feb 2013, at 20:05, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that we are making 
> an assumption about what a proposition is. In fact, if we look closely, a 
> proposition can only be another level of B. p is really nothing but a group 
> of sub-personal Beliefs (logarithmically nested as B^n) 
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> which we are arbitrarily considered as a given condition...but there is no 
> given condition in actual experience. 
>
>
> That's why we put Bp & p. To get the condition of 1p experience. It works 
> as we get a non nameable, and non formalisable notion of knowledge. S4 and 
> S4Grz do succeed in meta-formalizing a thoroughly non formalisable notion. 
>
>
>
>
> All experiences are contingent upon what the experiencer is capable of 
> receiving or interacting with.
>
> Any proposition that can be named relies on some pre-existing context 
> (which is sensed or makes sense). 
>
> The problem with applying Doxastic models to consciousness is not only 
> that it amputates the foundations of awareness,
>
>
>
> It does not for the reason above. Note that even Bp & p can lead to 
> falsity, in principle. Things get more complex when you add the non 
> monotonic layers, that we need for natural languages and for the mundane 
> type of belief or knowledge. Here, of course, with the goal of deriving the 
> correct physical laws; it is simpler to consider the case of ideally 
> correct machine, for which us, but not the machine itself can know the 
> equivalence.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> but that the fact of the amputation will be hidden by the results. In 
> Baudrillard's terms, this is a stage 3 simulacrum, (stage one = a true 
> reflection, stage two = a perversion of the truth, stage three = a 
> perversion which pretends not to be a perversion).
>
> The third stage masks the absence of a profound reality, where the 
>> simulacrum *pretends* to be a faithful copy, but it is a copy with no 
>> original. Signs and images claim to represent something real, but no 
>> representation is taking place and arbitrary images are merely suggested as 
>> things which they have no relationship to. Baudrillard calls this the 
>> "order of sorcery", a regime of 
>> semantic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics>algebra where all human 
>> meaning is conjured artificially to appear as a 
>> reference to the (increasingly) hermetic truth.
>>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation
>
> This is made more important by the understanding that sense or awareness 
> is the source of authenticity itself. This means that there can be no 
> tolerance for any stage of simulation beyond 1. In my hypotheses, I am 
> always trying to get at the 1 stage for that reason, because consciousness 
> or experience, by definition, has no substitute.
>
> Craig 
>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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