On 08 Mar 2013, at 05:37, Terren Suydam wrote:
Ah. That's above my pay grade unfortunately. But I don't think our
immediate failure to solve that problem dooms the idea that a cat's
experience of the world is explainable in terms of mechanism.
Conversely, even if we did solve it, there would still be doubts.
For the time being, comp remains for me the most fruitful assumption
about reality, such as it is. It assumes so little and opens up such
incredible vistas.
Yes.
And that comp leads to problems is what makes it interesting. I use
comp like the drunk man who looks for his key under the lamp, as
elsewhere he knows he will not find it.
Comp is only a lamp.
It shows that the somber unknown is bigger than what some might think
at first sight.
Bruno
Terren
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Stephen P. King <[email protected]
> wrote:
On 3/7/2013 10:40 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
I'm game. Which puzzle are we figuring out?
A solution to Bruno's 'arithmetic body problem'.
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Stephen P. King <[email protected]
> wrote:
On 3/7/2013 9:14 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
Right, we basically agree. At the low level where optics are being
processed, it seems to me to be more accurate to say the brain is
creating the constructions. Another way to say it is that kittens
and babies are probably born with the neural circuits that
implement those shortcuts - optimizations implemented through
genetics. Whereas with the kind of construction that is created by
the mind, it seems to me that those constructions live at a higher
level - the psychological - and arise as a result of experience
and learning. I don't really think that is what's going on with
optical illusions since they are so universal. But that is
quibbling - whichever of us is more correct, it's beside the point
regarding whether optical illusions have a mechanistic explanation.
Hi,
OK then, I would rather work with you on figuring this puzzle
out than spar with you over "who has the best explanation". ;-)
Terren
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Stephen P. King <[email protected]
> wrote:
On 3/7/2013 6:09 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
The same way it explains it for humans. The cat is not sensing
the world directly, but the constructions created by its brain.
Hi Terren,
I almost agree, I only add that it is not just the brain of
the cat (or human or whatever) that is being sensed, the mind is
involved in the construction as well.
Those constructions involve shortcuts of various kinds (e.g. edge
detection) optimized for the kinds of environments that cats have
thrived in, from an evolutionary
standpoint. Those shortcuts are what lead to optical illusions.
Optical illusions are stimuli that expose the shortcuts for what
they are. There is nothing about the fact that it's a cat that
makes this any harder to explain in mechanistic terms.
Sure, and the mind as well.
It is interesting because it suggests that cats employ at least
one of the same shortcuts as we do, which further suggests that
the visual optimizations that lead to optical illusions are much
older than humans. And while that is not a very controversial
claim, it is cool to have some evidence for it.
Yes, I have to show this to my friends that are studying
pattern recognition.
Terren
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Stephen P. King <[email protected]
> wrote:
On 3/7/2013 11:36 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
I have no doubt that Craig will somehow see this as a
vindication of his theory and a refutation of mechanism.
Terren
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Stephen P. King <[email protected]
> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
feature=player_embedded&v=CcXXQ6GCUb8
--
Hi Terren,
How does Mechanism explain this? Will The Amazing Randy be
pushed forward to loudly claim that the cat was really chasing a
laser dot that the video camera could not capture?
--
--
Onward!
Stephen
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