On 10 Mar 2013, at 09:31, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 3/10/2013 4:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 09 Mar 2013, at 21:37, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 3/9/2013 6:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 08 Mar 2013, at 13:58, Stephen P. King wrote (to Alberto
Corona):
We are machines, very sophisticated, but machines nonetheless
and doubly so!
I don't think we know that.
Hi Bruno,
Of course "we don't know that for sure"... you are being
ridiculous !
This can only be an hypothesis, or a consequence of an hypothesis.
Yes, of course. We can only have certainty within a theory with
a proof, for your idea of "we know that". I understand...
The same is true for the proposition "we are not machine".
Is not p, of Bp&p, a hypothesis as well?
Yes. But not at the same level.
Hi Bruno,
OK, what generates or requires the stratification into levels?
To ask a machine about herself (like in self-duplication experiences),
you need to represent the machine in the language available to the
machine. This generates the stratification.
Stephen P. King wrote (to me):
But neither Bp nor Bp & p are ontological. Only p is is.
Could you make a mental note to elaborate on how p is
ontological?
I have fixed the base ontology with N = {0, s(0), s(s(0)), ...},
with the usual successor, + and * axioms/laws.
p is used for an arbitrary arithmetical proposition, at that base
level, with its usual standard interpretation. It is ontological
as opposed to epistemological proposition, which in this setting
means "believed by some machine", and which I denote by Bp. Of
course, and that is what comp makes possible, Bp is also a purely
arithmetical proposition (beweisbar("p")), but they are
epistemological because they involve a machine, and a proposition
coded in the machine language.
When I write p, I allude to the arithmetical truth, which
describes the ontology chosen (the numbers, and the arithmetical
proposition with their usual standard interpretation). Then some
arithmetical proposition are singled out as epistemological
because they describe:
- the "thinking" of some machine, like Bp, or
- the knowledge of some machine, like Bp & p, or the observation
of some machine like Bp & Dt, or
- the feeling of some machine like Bp & Dt & p.
See my papers for the precise morphisms, and the derivation of
the corresponding logics and mathematics. Or ask further
question. I don't want to be long.
I wish that you could speak vaguely with us and be OK.
Precision has its place and time but not here when our time to
respond is limited.
That's why I have done UDA, for all good willing humans, from
age 7 to 77, and AUDA, for all digital machines and humans
knowing how a digital machine work. Of course, the digital
machine knew already, in some (platonic) sense.
You seem sometimes to forget that the children also have
questions for you to answer...
???
Why do you ever make statements like that. Nothing is more wrong.
I have no clue why you make such ad hominem and completely absurd
comment.
I love answer all genuine question, from 7 to 77, I just
precisely said. This include children.
But you demand too much exactness in a response, as you
demonstrate above.
On the contrary. Children uses plain language.
No, they use naive language. They do not assume that they know
what they do not know.
And you do?
You give always too much precise answer but with a non relevant
precision. Here you were just wrong, but no matter how we try to
make the point, you will evade it by a 1004 move, an allusion, or
on opinion assertion, making hard to progress.
You are claiming that my question is incoherent. OK, let us move
along.
No, I was claiming that you were wrong. You said I don't take into
account children, but I do.
AUDA can be said to take into account all creatures, or all Löbian
consistent extensions of elementary arithmetic.
Human can choose by themselves. Human are relative universal
number by comp, even without step 8. Only a non-comp believer
should be astonished.
OK. "Human are relative universal number by comp..." Could you
add more detail to this answer? What is the 'relative' word
mean? Relative to what?
Either (according to the context):
-relative to the base theory (the starting universal system that
we assume. I have chosen arithmetic (after an attempt of chosing
the combinators, but people are less familiar with them), or
-relative to a universal number, which is universal relatively to
the base theory, or
-relative to a universal number, which is relative to a universal
number, which is relative to the base theory, etc.
Fine, could you consider how the general pattern of this can be
seen in the isomorphisms of universal numbers?
Which isomorphisms?
Relations between universal numbers that are equivalences. For
example, the universal number that encodes the statement X in
language B is isomorphic to the statement X in language A, iff B(X)
= A(X) ...
Either you explain your point in plain language, or if you use a
mathematical term, you explain it in standard math. The way you mix
them makes it not understandable for layman, and non sensical to
mathematicians.
Consider how many different languages humans use to describe the
same physical world, we would think it silly if someone made
claims that only English was the 'correct' language. So too with
mathematics.
You confuse the content of mathematics and the language used. The
mathematical reality has nothing to do with language.
No, that is not my sin.
Nice.
My sin is that I do not know exactly now to communicate in your
language.
You attribute to me the idea that chalkboard don't exist. Did I
ever said that?
UDA Step 8.
Many others have already told you this many times. UDA step 8
concludes that chalkboard does not exist in a primary sense. Not
that chalkboard does not exist in the observable sense.
OK, my point is that just as the chalkboard emerges so too do
the possible arithmetic representations of said chalkboard.
That could make sense if you put the card on the table, and tell
what you are assuming, and how the numbers emerge from it.
You are actually asking that I know what to write before I have
the ability to write that you want me to write so that you can
understand my thoughts. Nice burden to place upon me!
*You* write something. If you don't know what you want to write, don't
write, until you know.
But it is has been proved that it has to be Turing equivalent, and
so the base theory will just be another Turing universal system. I
use arithmetic because people are already familiar with it.
How, exactly is the claim "has it (all physical implementations
of comp) been proved that it has to be Turing equivalent"
falsifiable? It requires that we examine every possible physical
world without any guidance of what a "physical world" might be!
This shows perhaps only that we should not even start assuming a
physical reality. We don't know if that exists (primarily), we have
never suggest a way to test it, and it brings unnecessary difficulties.
They are co-dependent in my dual aspect theory.
We don't use theory in the same sense. I have not yet seen a
theory, in the usual sense of theory.
So?
So I fail to see what you mean. That would not be a problem, except
that you do assert some amount of dissatisfaction with either comp or
its consequence, and you invoke a theory to explain this, but you
don't show the theory. What can I do for helping?
I do not understand how you explain the emergence of the
chalkboard except to refer to a vague "arithmetic body problem'.
That's the whole object of my work and my post here. Physics is
given by the S4Grz1, Z1* and X1* logic. But even without AUDA, the
origin of physics is entirely explained by the first person
indeterminacy on the computations.
No! An 'explanation' is not an explanation unless an arbitrarily
large number of observers can agree that the model of the theory is
experienced by them, i.e. that it is 'real'.
Up to now, comp gives the quantum physics, so that is the case that
the theory is experienced by the observers.
And the explanation makes clear why it separates into qualia and
quanta.
How?
I have explained this already. By the 1p that we got from the "& p"
intensional variants + the spliiting between justifiable and true that
we obtained from the splitting between G and G* intensional variant.
We get a complete explanation why machines distinguishes truth that
they can access and relation between beliefs that they can justify.
You don't need to believe in comp to understand the theory.
???
You don't need to believe (as true) in any theory to understand that
theory. You need only to believe it as an hypothesis.
That would instantaneously refutes comp. The conclusion is that
physics is not the fundamental science, and that it is reduced to
arithmetic. Not that physics is non sense. OIn the contrary, with
comp we see how a physical reality, even a quantum one, is
unavoidable for almost all universal numbers.
Yes, but can we try to restate this in a different form?
Yes, we know that classical determinism is wrong, but it is
not logically inconsistent with consciousness.
I must disagree. It is baked into the topology of classical
mechanics that a system cannot semantically act upon itself.
? (that seems to contradict comp, and be rather 1004)
You do not seem consider the need to error correct and adapt
to changing local conditions for a conscious machine nor the
need to maintain access to low entropy resources. Your machines
are never hungry.
Take the Heisenberg matrix of the Milky way at the level of
strings, with 10^1000 decimals. Its evolution is emulated by
infinitely many arithmetical relation, and in all of them a lot
of machines are hungry, and many lack resources, and other do
not. Now, such computation might not have the right first person
indeterminacy measure, but in this case comp is false, and if
someone show that he will refute comp. But in all case,
arithmetic handle all relative resources. So you it seems that
you are not correct here.
I think that the measure is determined locally by the number of
machines that get fed versus the total number of possible machines
that could be implemented in that location, very vaguely speaking.
You escape again the point made.
I escape purposely. I have learned from the best escape artists!
The emulation of the Milky way (with 10^1000 decimals) demands a
specific quantity of resources to be run.
Yes, but that is the kind of resources that is free in arithmetic. It
is not a physical resource.
This is not philosophy! In physics there is an upper bound on the
quantity of computations that can occur in a given space-time hyper
volume: Bekenstein's bound. This is ignored in Platonism.
Because the goal is in explaining physics. You said yourself that
physics is not primitive, but you keep referring to physical
statements to criticize a theory which does not assume, and cannot
assume physics. That is not consistent.
Bruno
--
Onward!
Stephen
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