On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:11 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> We need to agree on terminology if we're going to have a discussion at
>> all. Have aliens visited the Earth? We need to agree that an "alien"
>> is a being born on another planet. It doesn't mean we agree on the
>> facts, but we need to at least speak the same language!
> I'm not opposed to agreeing on terminology, but that means we both agree,
> not that I agree to your terms.

I'll agree on your terms, but you have to make it explicit.

>> So, do you believe that it possible that an entity which is
>> deterministic from a third person perspective could be conscious, or
>> do you believe that an entity which is deterministic from a third
>> person perspective could not possibly be conscious?
> Yes, I think all deterministic looking systems represent sensory-motor
> participation of some kind, but not necessarily on the level that we assume.
> What we see as a cloud may have sensory-motor participation as droplets of
> water molecules, and as a wisp in the atmosphere as a whole, but not at all
> as a coherent cloud that we perceive. The cloud is a human scale emblem, not
> the native entity. The native awareness may reside in a much faster or much
> slower frequency range or sample rate than our own, so there is little hope
> of our relating to it personally. It's like Flatland only with perceptual
> relativity rather than quant dimension.

I'm not completely sure but I think you've just said the brain could
be deterministic and still be conscious.

> This is also why computers are not conscious. The native entity is
> microelectronic or geological, not mechanical. The machine as a whole is
> again an emblem, not an organic, self-invested whole.

I don't understand what you think the fundamental difference is
between a brain, a cloud and a computer.

Stathis Papaioannou

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