On 5/23/2013 5:20 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
Citeren meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>:

On 5/23/2013 12:51 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



2013/5/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>

    On 5/23/2013 11:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



    2013/5/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>

        On 5/23/2013 7:07 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl <mailto:smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote:

            Citeren Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be 
<mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>>:


                On 23 May 2013, at 00:05, meekerdb wrote:

On 5/22/2013 2:49 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl <mailto:smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote:

                        Thought experiment: Suppose that someone has never 
experienced
                         touching hot objects before. As long as this person 
does not
                        find  out that touching hot objects is painful, either 
by
                        touching hot  objects himself or by being told that it 
is
                        painful, he will be in  a superposition of two sectors 
of the
                        multiverse where he has and  has not the ability to feel
                        extreme pain when touching very hot objects.

                        The sector where he does not have the ability to feel 
pain has
                        a  very small amplitude, there evolution has run a 
different
                        course.  In the other sector evoluton has run the 
course where
                        the ancestors  in the first sector ddidn't survive, it 
where
                        the creatures with  some mutation that lead to them 
feeling
                        pain when touching hot  objects that survived here.

                        The mere act of touching a hot object is a measuremnt 
which
                        locates  the person in the latter sector, only then 
does the
                        outcome of the  events that happened a long time ago 
become
                        determined.


                    That assumes that the "same person" exists up to the moment 
of
                     measurement, differing, via FPI, only in the ability to 
feel pain.
                    I  doubt that is possible.  There is a common assumption 
that QM
                    makes  anything possible, but it actually imposes some
                    restrictions,  although it's hard to say how they extend to 
the
                    biology of  macroscopic beings.


                I agree. Even in comp there are "terrible" restrictions on what 
comp
                 states exist and how they are first person and third person 
related.
                 Indeed that's why we can extract physics (and a whole 
theology) from
                 numbers and + and *.

                Bruno


                http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>




            It can be shown quite rigorously that everything that is not 
strictly
            forbidden by conservation laws, must happen in generic multiverse 
scenarios.


        Do you have a citation for that?  And how do you know what conservation 
laws
        there are?


            But then, the whole point I'm making is that the information in 
your brain
            that makes you feel something comes not out of thin air, but 
precisely due
            to evolution. So, you feeling pain comes about via ordinary down to 
earth
            quantum mechanics, which links this straightforwardly to the deaths 
of
            those creatures that by dying and not becoming your ancestors, gave 
rise to
            your ability to feel pain.


        Of course I agree that the "gave rise to".  But that's not the same 
supposing
        they were in a superposition with you up until the moment you felt a 
pain.
         That seems to reserve to consciousness the ability to "collapse the 
wave
        function".


    Well if all "universes" still exists after the measurement, it just gives 
the
    ability for consciousness to localize itself... not collapsing anything 
which seems
    right. To collapse the wave function would mean that after self 
localisation, only
    one universe would remain. It does not seems that was what Saibal was 
implying.

    Regards,
    Quentin

    You're right, I put that badly.  There are lots of things that "localize" 
themselves
    by making a classical record, and even an irretrievable one (c.f. buckyball 
double
    slit).  So it seems wrong to suppose that consciousness is in a 
superposition when
    there is information in the environment


But until you know it consciously, your mind state is the same in two parts of the multiverse,

Why should mind=consciousness? Over any short duration I am conscious of *very* few things. "I" am hardly localized at all. Which is just another form of the "white rabbit" problem. On this world view, why should expect any continuity in my experience sufficient to define "I"?

Your consciousness is only located at specific moments in time as computational states.

That doesn't follow from QM.  You're mixing in assumptions about comp.

The idea that you need a time interval to properly define this is wrong and 
unphysical.

What's physical about assuming you are a sequence of states in computations? If a state is discrete why should the sequence respect physical conservation laws.





the one where you ancestors did feel pain and the one where they didn't... how can you differentiate those two states ? How can the two outcomes not be correct continuations of that mind state before measurement ?

The question is whether the "measurement" has to be an event in my consciousness or can it be a event(s) in the physical world. Suppose I am drugged so that I can't feel pain for the moment, but I remember having felt pain. Then I will expect to be able to feel pain again and I will infer that evolution provided my ancestors with ability to feel pain and others that didn't died childless. The physical world theory seems to provide the better model.

If you remember having physical pain in the past, that means that you have information about that in your mind. The state of your mind and that of the real world are thus correlated on that point. If at some point in time you are not aware of something at all, then you are in a superposition of different sectors of the real world where the information you are not aware can be different.

Yes, I understand the implications. But as I said it just raises the white rabbit problem. If you take it seriously then there is no "you" and there is no possibility of having better or worse expectation. It's a useless theory that just says "Everything is experienced, so "you" will experience it."

Brent

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