On 5/23/2013 12:51 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/5/23 meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
On 5/23/2013 11:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/5/23 meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
On 5/23/2013 7:07 AM, [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Citeren Bruno Marchal <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>:
On 23 May 2013, at 00:05, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/22/2013 2:49 PM, [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Thought experiment: Suppose that someone has never
experienced
touching hot objects before. As long as this person
does not
find out that touching hot objects is painful, either
by
touching hot objects himself or by being told that it
is
painful, he will be in a superposition of two sectors
of the
multiverse where he has and has not the ability to feel
extreme pain when touching very hot objects.
The sector where he does not have the ability to feel
pain has
a very small amplitude, there evolution has run a
different
course. In the other sector evoluton has run the
course where
the ancestors in the first sector ddidn't survive, it
where
the creatures with some mutation that lead to them
feeling
pain when touching hot objects that survived here.
The mere act of touching a hot object is a measuremnt
which
locates the person in the latter sector, only then
does the
outcome of the events that happened a long time ago
become
determined.
That assumes that the "same person" exists up to the moment
of
measurement, differing, via FPI, only in the ability to
feel pain.
I doubt that is possible. There is a common assumption
that QM
makes anything possible, but it actually imposes some
restrictions, although it's hard to say how they extend to
the
biology of macroscopic beings.
I agree. Even in comp there are "terrible" restrictions on what
comp
states exist and how they are first person and third person
related.
Indeed that's why we can extract physics (and a whole
theology) from
numbers and + and *.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>
It can be shown quite rigorously that everything that is not
strictly
forbidden by conservation laws, must happen in generic multiverse
scenarios.
Do you have a citation for that? And how do you know what conservation
laws
there are?
But then, the whole point I'm making is that the information in
your brain
that makes you feel something comes not out of thin air, but
precisely due
to evolution. So, you feeling pain comes about via ordinary down to
earth
quantum mechanics, which links this straightforwardly to the deaths
of
those creatures that by dying and not becoming your ancestors, gave
rise to
your ability to feel pain.
Of course I agree that the "gave rise to". But that's not the same
supposing
they were in a superposition with you up until the moment you felt a
pain.
That seems to reserve to consciousness the ability to "collapse the
wave
function".
Well if all "universes" still exists after the measurement, it just gives
the
ability for consciousness to localize itself... not collapsing anything
which seems
right. To collapse the wave function would mean that after self
localisation, only
one universe would remain. It does not seems that was what Saibal was
implying.
Regards,
Quentin
You're right, I put that badly. There are lots of things that "localize"
themselves
by making a classical record, and even an irretrievable one (c.f. buckyball
double
slit). So it seems wrong to suppose that consciousness is in a
superposition when
there is information in the environment
But until you know it consciously, your mind state is the same in two parts of the
multiverse,
Why should mind=consciousness? Over any short duration I am conscious of *very* few
things. "I" am hardly localized at all. Which is just another form of the "white rabbit"
problem. On this world view, why should expect any continuity in my experience sufficient
to define "I"?
the one where you ancestors did feel pain and the one where they didn't... how can you
differentiate those two states ? How can the two outcomes not be correct continuations
of that mind state before measurement ?
The question is whether the "measurement" has to be an event in my consciousness or can it
be a event(s) in the physical world. Suppose I am drugged so that I can't feel pain for
the moment, but I remember having felt pain. Then I will expect to be able to feel pain
again and I will infer that evolution provided my ancestors with ability to feel pain and
others that didn't died childless. The physical world theory seems to provide the better
model.
Brent
Regards,
Quentin
about the fate of your ancestors and whether or not they felt pain. It
can't be
because the brain is in a superposition. Therefore the implication seems to
be a
kind of dualism.
Brent
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