2013/5/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>

>  On 5/23/2013 11:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 2013/5/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
>
>> On 5/23/2013 7:07 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>>
>>> Citeren Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 23 May 2013, at 00:05, meekerdb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On 5/22/2013 2:49 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thought experiment: Suppose that someone has never experienced
>>>>>>  touching hot objects before. As long as this person does not find  out
>>>>>> that touching hot objects is painful, either by touching hot  objects
>>>>>> himself or by being told that it is painful, he will be in  a 
>>>>>> superposition
>>>>>> of two sectors of the multiverse where he has and  has not the ability to
>>>>>> feel extreme pain when touching very hot  objects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The sector where he does not have the ability to feel pain has a
>>>>>>  very small amplitude, there evolution has run a different course.  In 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> other sector evoluton has run the course where the ancestors  in the 
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> sector ddidn't survive, it where the creatures with  some mutation that
>>>>>> lead to them feeling pain when touching hot  objects that survived here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The mere act of touching a hot object is a measuremnt which locates
>>>>>>  the person in the latter sector, only then does the outcome of the  
>>>>>> events
>>>>>> that happened a long time ago become determined.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That assumes that the "same person" exists up to the moment of
>>>>>  measurement, differing, via FPI, only in the ability to feel pain. I
>>>>>  doubt that is possible.  There is a common assumption that QM makes
>>>>>  anything possible, but it actually imposes some restrictions,  although
>>>>> it's hard to say how they extend to the biology of  macroscopic beings.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Even in comp there are "terrible" restrictions on what comp
>>>>  states exist and how they are first person and third person related.
>>>>  Indeed that's why we can extract physics (and a whole theology) from
>>>>  numbers and + and *.
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It can be shown quite rigorously that everything that is not strictly
>>> forbidden by conservation laws, must happen in generic multiverse
>>> scenarios.
>>>
>>
>>  Do you have a citation for that?  And how do you know what conservation
>> laws there are?
>>
>>
>>  But then, the whole point I'm making is that the information in your
>>> brain that makes you feel something comes not out of thin air, but
>>> precisely due to evolution. So, you feeling pain comes about via ordinary
>>> down to earth quantum mechanics, which links this straightforwardly to the
>>> deaths of those creatures that by dying and not becoming your ancestors,
>>> gave rise to your ability to feel pain.
>>>
>>
>>  Of course I agree that the "gave rise to".  But that's not the same
>> supposing they were in a superposition with you up until the moment you
>> felt a pain.  That seems to reserve to consciousness the ability to
>> "collapse the wave function".
>>
>
>  Well if all "universes" still exists after the measurement, it just
> gives the ability for consciousness to localize itself... not collapsing
> anything which seems right. To collapse the wave function would mean that
> after self localisation, only one universe would remain. It does not seems
> that was what Saibal was implying.
>
> Regards,
> Quentin
>
>
> You're right, I put that badly.  There are lots of things that "localize"
> themselves by making a classical record, and even an irretrievable one
> (c.f. buckyball double slit).  So it seems wrong to suppose that
> consciousness is in a superposition when there is information in the
> environment
>

But until you know it consciously, your mind state is the same in two parts
of the multiverse, the one where you ancestors did feel pain and the one
where they didn't... how can you differentiate those two states ? How can
the two outcomes not be correct continuations of that mind state before
measurement ?

Regards,
Quentin


> about the fate of your ancestors and whether or not they felt pain.  It
> can't be because the brain is in a superposition.  Therefore the
> implication seems to be a kind of dualism.
>
> Brent
>
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