On 5/23/2013 11:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/5/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>
On 5/23/2013 7:07 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl <mailto:smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
Citeren Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>>:
On 23 May 2013, at 00:05, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/22/2013 2:49 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl
Thought experiment: Suppose that someone has never
touching hot objects before. As long as this person does
out that touching hot objects is painful, either by
objects himself or by being told that it is painful, he
will be in
a superposition of two sectors of the multiverse where he
has not the ability to feel extreme pain when touching
The sector where he does not have the ability to feel pain
very small amplitude, there evolution has run a different
In the other sector evoluton has run the course where the
in the first sector ddidn't survive, it where the
some mutation that lead to them feeling pain when touching
objects that survived here.
The mere act of touching a hot object is a measuremnt which
the person in the latter sector, only then does the
outcome of the
events that happened a long time ago become determined.
That assumes that the "same person" exists up to the moment of
measurement, differing, via FPI, only in the ability to feel
doubt that is possible. There is a common assumption that QM
anything possible, but it actually imposes some restrictions,
it's hard to say how they extend to the biology of macroscopic
I agree. Even in comp there are "terrible" restrictions on what
exist and how they are first person and third person related.
why we can extract physics (and a whole theology) from numbers and
+ and *.
It can be shown quite rigorously that everything that is not strictly
by conservation laws, must happen in generic multiverse scenarios.
Do you have a citation for that? And how do you know what conservation
laws there are?
But then, the whole point I'm making is that the information in your
makes you feel something comes not out of thin air, but precisely due to
evolution. So, you feeling pain comes about via ordinary down to earth
mechanics, which links this straightforwardly to the deaths of those
that by dying and not becoming your ancestors, gave rise to your
ability to feel
Of course I agree that the "gave rise to". But that's not the same
were in a superposition with you up until the moment you felt a pain. That
reserve to consciousness the ability to "collapse the wave function".
Well if all "universes" still exists after the measurement, it just gives the ability
for consciousness to localize itself... not collapsing anything which seems right. To
collapse the wave function would mean that after self localisation, only one universe
would remain. It does not seems that was what Saibal was implying.
You're right, I put that badly. There are lots of things that "localize" themselves by
making a classical record, and even an irretrievable one (c.f. buckyball double slit). So
it seems wrong to suppose that consciousness is in a superposition when there is
information in the environment about the fate of your ancestors and whether or not they
felt pain. It can't be because the brain is in a superposition. Therefore the
implication seems to be a kind of dualism.
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