On 5/23/2013 11:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



2013/5/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>

    On 5/23/2013 7:07 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl <mailto:smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote:

        Citeren Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>>:


            On 23 May 2013, at 00:05, meekerdb wrote:

                On 5/22/2013 2:49 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl 
<mailto:smi...@zonnet.nl> wrote:

                    Thought experiment: Suppose that someone has never 
experienced
                     touching hot objects before. As long as this person does 
not find
                     out that touching hot objects is painful, either by 
touching hot
                     objects himself or by being told that it is painful, he 
will be in
                     a superposition of two sectors of the multiverse where he 
has and
                     has not the ability to feel extreme pain when touching 
very hot
                     objects.

                    The sector where he does not have the ability to feel pain 
has a
                     very small amplitude, there evolution has run a different 
course.
                     In the other sector evoluton has run the course where the 
ancestors
                     in the first sector ddidn't survive, it where the 
creatures with
                     some mutation that lead to them feeling pain when touching 
hot
                     objects that survived here.

                    The mere act of touching a hot object is a measuremnt which 
locates
                     the person in the latter sector, only then does the 
outcome of the
                     events that happened a long time ago become determined.


                That assumes that the "same person" exists up to the moment of
                 measurement, differing, via FPI, only in the ability to feel 
pain. I
                 doubt that is possible.  There is a common assumption that QM 
makes
                 anything possible, but it actually imposes some restrictions,  
although
                it's hard to say how they extend to the biology of  macroscopic 
beings.


            I agree. Even in comp there are "terrible" restrictions on what 
comp  states
            exist and how they are first person and third person related.  
Indeed that's
            why we can extract physics (and a whole theology) from  numbers and 
+ and *.

            Bruno


            http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>




        It can be shown quite rigorously that everything that is not strictly 
forbidden
        by conservation laws, must happen in generic multiverse scenarios.


    Do you have a citation for that?  And how do you know what conservation 
laws there are?


        But then, the whole point I'm making is that the information in your 
brain that
        makes you feel something comes not out of thin air, but precisely due to
        evolution. So, you feeling pain comes about via ordinary down to earth 
quantum
        mechanics, which links this straightforwardly to the deaths of those 
creatures
        that by dying and not becoming your ancestors, gave rise to your 
ability to feel
        pain.


    Of course I agree that the "gave rise to".  But that's not the same 
supposing they
    were in a superposition with you up until the moment you felt a pain.  That 
seems to
    reserve to consciousness the ability to "collapse the wave function".


Well if all "universes" still exists after the measurement, it just gives the ability for consciousness to localize itself... not collapsing anything which seems right. To collapse the wave function would mean that after self localisation, only one universe would remain. It does not seems that was what Saibal was implying.

Regards,
Quentin

You're right, I put that badly. There are lots of things that "localize" themselves by making a classical record, and even an irretrievable one (c.f. buckyball double slit). So it seems wrong to suppose that consciousness is in a superposition when there is information in the environment about the fate of your ancestors and whether or not they felt pain. It can't be because the brain is in a superposition. Therefore the implication seems to be a kind of dualism.

Brent

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