On 15 Jun 2013, at 16:33, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

I wonder if a more precise way of stating this is to say, that like Platonism, there must be an underlying programming to the cosmos. That would cover the Idealism central feature.

Arithmetical realism entails the the experienceable cosmos *cannot* be programmed, as it emerges from a sort of competitions between all "digital approximations" of it.

Bruno






-----Original Message-----
From: chris peck <chris_peck...@hotmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jun 15, 2013 3:40 am
Subject: RE: In Defense of Penrose. That everybody --including materialists, empiricists and rationalists--is a Platonist

Hi Rog

As you have described them a materialist could not be a "combination of both" rationalism and empiricism, because you have them as diametrically opposed. If "reason alone" is the source of knowledge, then experience isn't and can't be combined to be. Besides, Materialism is an ontological theory and doesn't give much of a hoot about how knowledge is aquired.

More to the point neither rationalism nor empiricism are branches of intuitionism. The moment of inspiration Penrose attributes to the mind connecting with a realm of ideas is neither an act of reason nor sensory experience. Moreover, If logic is to be "deductive" then, by definition, conclusions must never follow from unexplainable leaps of intuition. If they do they have not been logically deduced, have they? And infact that is Penrose's point : leaps of intuition can not be modelled computationally. logic, ofcourse, can be. since, allegedly, minds can grope for and master facts beyond the scope of deduction, they must be qualitatively different from computer programs which can only deduce things logically.

You really seem to have things back to front in this post.

Regards

--- Original Message ---

From: "Roger Clough" <rclo...@verizon.net>
Sent: 15 June 2013 1:47 AM
To: "- Roger Clough" <rclo...@verizon.net>
Subject: In Defense of Penrose. That everybody --including materialists, empiricists and rationalists--is a Platonist

In Defense of Penrose. That everybody --including materialists, empiricists and rationalists--is a Platonist

Empiricism is the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from sense experience. Rationalism is the doctrine that reason alone is a source of knowledge and is independent of experience.
Materialism is a combination of both philosophies.

These may sound like completely diffierent doctrines, but my point here is that
all of these pursuits ultimately rely on intuition.
They  afre both subbranches of intjuitionism.

Why ? Concerning rationalism, even deductive logic requires intuition to arrive at a conclusilon.
Concering empiricism, it is fairly obvious to see that experience
alone cannot provide us any conclusion. If you dpoubt that,
consider Peirce's three categories, in which Secondness is
the category of intuion, leading us from an experience to a fact.

So Penrose's recent excursion into Platonism should be taken more seriously, for ultimately his criticizers, the empiricists and the rationalists, are both Platonists.


Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 6/14/2013
See my Leibniz site at
http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough
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