On 16 Jun 2013, at 15:11, Roger Clough wrote:

This note is addressed to all materialists, especially Prof. Dennett. Getting from "me" to "I"'

Self-reference could be a subject/predicate relation. But that doesn't say enough because
there are two possible perspectives:

1) "He is a man." Here you are referencing yourself in the 3rd person or objective persepective. Bruno Marchall calls this "3p" .

2) "I am a man." This is 1st person. Marshall calls this "1p." 1p is the subjective form of self-reference.

Do you see the difference ? Materialism and computer language only gives us the objective (descriptive) or 3p format
because it does not contain a subjective element.

You get it when you apply Theaetetus definition of knowledge to the description of the machine's belief (that's 3p, but then theaetetus' definition is Bp & p, and crazily enough, incompleteness makes it a working definition for a non nameable (by the subject) notion of 1p.

This is not obvious, as incompleteness is by itself not obvious, but it works, and refute your point.

Leibniz gets around this problem by including a subjective element, which is
that which perceives the world through the top monad. This subjectrive
element is universal and isa what Plato called the One or Oversoul.

OK, but machines get it too.

To include such a subjective element, you need to have a point in the
brain which is something like a king, that does all of the perceiving and
governing. He is not a simple homunculus, he makes sense of what the
visual signals in the optical nerves provides us with.

Yes that "point" exists, for machine's too.

Am I making any sense to you materialists? Can you see the difference between the "I" perspectiove (what i say above) and the "me" of conventional materialistic theory ?

They can, but as long as they want to keep weak materialism (the belief in some primary matter), they are obliged to eliminate it to remain consistent.

But Leibniz still hold on some primary matter. It is better to backtrack to those who understood the first that "primary matter" is not supported by any evidences, as the dream argument already suggests.



You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Reply via email to