By the way the brain produces high fidelity illusions for us most of our waking 
lives. For example the way we perceive our sight is very different from the 
intermittent stream of neural signals that begin their journey from our 
retinas. Did you know that every time you shift your eyes from one focus point 
to another that during the period of time the eyeball is in movement from one 
focus to the next no visual signals are being sent down the optic nerve. That 
if the brain was not producing an illusion for us the world we see should 
vanish each time we move our eyes (or blink them) Does the world disappear each 
time you blink or move your eyes? Of course it doesn't. Your mind maintains a 
steady and beautifully rendered illusion of the world in your mind that is 
seamlessly stitched into the new stream of optic signals as they arrive. There 
is no discontinuity. 
 
When you turn your head from one side to the other does the world spin?  -- the 
world around you is instead held in a majestic stability that is not real, 
because it should be instead spinning as your head spins. Instead in our 
perception the world stays stable and it is our "perspective" -- our inner view 
-- that shifts. This makes sense from the point of view of the inner observer, 
but the mind needs to do a lot of work to build the illusion.
Our brains are, grand masters of illusion and we live in illusion (a 
reification of sensorial reality) all our waking lives. 
 
The perfection of our visual illusion is a masterpiece of interpretive 
processing where the raw signals we get are stitched together into a field of 
view and a focus within that field of view that -- though it clearly is 
reflective of our sensorial reality is also quite different; the "world" we see 
is very different than the world as it is recorded on our eyeballs (even to the 
extent of smoothly persisting without the barest hint of any interruption even 
as our eyes are not seeing a single thing at all.
 
Cheers,
-Chris

  

________________________________
 From: Dennis Ochei <do.infinit...@gmail.com>
To: "everything-list@googlegroups.com" <everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
  


>>Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid the impression of "free will" 
>>evolution would have had to provide us with conscious perception of the 
>>working of our brain.  This would not only have been expensive in biological 
>>resources and totally unnecessary to our survival, 

I want to add that this would also be impossible to do in full fidelity. The 
appearance of  free will and qualia make sense given this limitation



On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 1:01 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

On 9/3/2013 10:54 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:
> 
>  
>>
>> 
>>From: meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net
>>To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM
>>Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
>>  
>>
>>
>> 
>>On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:
>>  
>>Evolution did not go through all the trouble and to expend all the energy our 
>>species expends on creating this sensation within ourselves – whether it is 
>>actually real or an elaborate (and evolutionarily costly adaptation) to 
>>carefully create this deeply layered and highly convincing illusion of free 
>>will within us – for no reason at all. 
>>
>>>>Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid the impression of "free will" 
>>>>evolution would have had to provide us with conscious perception of the 
>>>>working of our brain.  This would not only have been expensive in 
>>>>biological resources and totally unnecessary to our survival, it would have 
>>>>posed the danger of entering do-loops. 
>> 
>>I do not see how that follows. The brain could have simply worked, supplying 
>>us with answers that we acted on robot like without questioning or 
>>contemplating how it arrived in the first instance. Why couldn't we exist as 
>>intelligent automata, behaving intelligently -- in any given generalized 
>>problem space --  without any inner life at all. Why would evolution be 
>>required to provide us with a conscious perception of the inner workings by 
>>which the brain arrived at whatever intelligent decision it arrived at; which 
>>is what I think you are stating; please correct me if I am off the mark.      
>> 
>
You are assuming that the brain has to *do something extra* to provide your 
inner life.  I'm saying probably not.  If I constructed a robot that could act 
and learn just as a human does, it would probably having similar feelings and 
"inner life". I think what you refer to as "inner life" is the inner narration 
as your brain formulates its story of what's happened so that it can be 
compared to what you expected. If it's unexpected you can learn from it.  If 
not it can safely be forgotten.  My robot might use a similar strategy for 
learning and so feel a similar "inner life".
>
>Brent
>
>
>
>
>>Brent
>>
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