On Tue, Sep 3, 2013  Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>   **
>> >>Can not comment, don't know what ASCII sequence "free will" means.
> You are merely being argumentative here.

> You certainly do have a very clear idea of the sensations you experience
> within your brain that we describe as experiencing "free will"

No I most certainly do not, and not only do I lack a clear understanding of
what the hell "free will" is supposed to mean nobody on this list has the
slightest idea either; I know this because for over 2 years I have been
reading posts from people who claimed to be able to explain what it was
without resorting to gibberish, and every single one of them failed

> to state that the only meaning this has to you is as a series of ASCII
> symbols strung together is hiding behind the skirt of semantics

Semantics is the branch of logic concerned with meaning, and I hope to hide
behind that skirt for the rest of my life.

> So I take it therefore that you accept that we have "self awareness"

I have self awareness obviously, perhaps others do too.

> > a clear sense of "self"


> > but that "free will" is just ASCII characters strung together


> Not very consistent of you.

How the hell do you figure that??

> So if "free will" is an illusion it is therefore necessarily mere noise
> in your estimation of things [...]

Free will is NOT an illusion! The word "illusion" has a clear meaning and
is not gibberish, "free will" is.

> > you have left unsupported by any evidence that the brain would go
> through all the trouble of producing the illusion just to make noise.. and
> that the evolutionary cost of maintaining this elaborate ruse is
> essentially non-existent.

For the 99'th time FREE WILL IS NOT A ILLUSION!

> you need to convincingly show how free will necessarily arises as a
> by-product of some other necessary brain function

And you need to convincingly show that when you make a "free will" noise
with your mouth you know what you're talking about.

> > I take it that your position is that free will and self awareness are
> necessary by-products of intelligence

My position is that because I know for a fact that Evolution produce self
awareness once (and who knows, maybe my fellow human beings are conscious
too) and because Evolution can not directly see self awareness any better
than I can see it in others, Evolution could not have made it, could not
have selected for it unless self awareness was a byproduct of something
else that Evolution could see, like intelligence.

As for "free will", my only position on that is that it is a noise that for
unknown reasons some bipeds like to make with their mouth. Ducks are
different, they prefer to say "quack" rather than "free will".

> > you cannot show how these are necessary by products of intelligence

If consciousness is fundamental, and I think it probably is, then after
saying that consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed
there is simply nothing more to say on the subject, if there were then it
wouldn't be fundamental.

> even if you like to state that free will is just  a string of ASCII
> characters to you -- can be generated within our brains at no extra cost

Random number generators cost very little and can produce gibberish like
"xudb-eyjq" or "free-will" very efficiently.

> both the direct costs of all the brain activity required in order to
> generate it and all the ancillary costs for the survival of the individuals
> who have it and who now must wrestle with "self awareness", "personal death
> -- i.e. our own mortality",

The awareness of death, the fear it engenders and the wish to avoided it
has such a strong Evolutionary justification that I won't insult your
intelligence by spelling it out.

 > and "free will"

Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII sequence "free will" means.

  John K Clark

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