________________________________
 From: Dennis Ochei <do.infinit...@gmail.com>
To: "everything-list@googlegroups.com" <everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
  


>>Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid the impression of "free will" 
>>evolution would have had to provide us with conscious perception of the 
>>working of our brain.  This would not only have been expensive in biological 
>>resources and totally unnecessary to our survival, 

I want to add that this would also be impossible to do in full fidelity. The 
appearance of  free will and qualia make sense given this limitation



On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 1:01 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

On 9/3/2013 10:54 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:
> 
>  
>>
>> 
>>From: meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net
>>To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM
>>Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
>>  
>>
>>
>> 
>>On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote:
>>  
>>Evolution did not go through all the trouble and to expend all the energy our 
>>species expends on creating this sensation within ourselves – whether it is 
>>actually real or an elaborate (and evolutionarily costly adaptation) to 
>>carefully create this deeply layered and highly convincing illusion of free 
>>will within us – for no reason at all. 
>>
>>>>Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid the impression of "free will" 
>>>>evolution would have had to provide us with conscious perception of the 
>>>>working of our brain.  This would not only have been expensive in 
>>>>biological resources and totally unnecessary to our survival, it would have 
>>>>posed the danger of entering do-loops. 
>> 
>>I do not see how that follows. The brain could have simply worked, supplying 
>>us with answers that we acted on robot like without questioning or 
>>contemplating how it arrived in the first instance. Why couldn't we exist as 
>>intelligent automata, behaving intelligently -- in any given generalized 
>>problem space --  without any inner life at all. Why would evolution be 
>>required to provide us with a conscious perception of the inner workings by 
>>which the brain arrived at whatever intelligent decision it arrived at; which 
>>is what I think you are stating; please correct me if I am off the mark.      
>> 
>
>>>You are assuming that the brain has to *do something extra* to provide your 
>>>inner life.  I'm saying probably not.  If I constructed a robot that could 
>>>act and learn just as a human does, it would probably having similar 
>>>feelings and "inner life". I think what you refer to as "inner life" is the 
>>>inner narration as your brain formulates its story of what's happened so 
>>>that it can be compared to what you expected. If it's unexpected you can 
>>>learn from it.  If not it can safely be forgotten.  My robot might use a 
>>>similar strategy for learning and so feel a similar "inner life".
>
>I do follow you and to some degree perhaps just the reification of sensorial 
>reality that the mind engages in  would be enough to generate this inner 
>sensation of being an observer of the self. There is a logical flow to your 
>argument; however I am still not convinced. 
>
>If self-awareness proceeds from the having sufficient reasoning capacity for 
>intelligence to take root then how does that account for the evolution of 
>mirror neurons, which seem central to the experience of self-awareness.  It 
>seems, instead that evolution went through quite a bit of trouble to make sure 
>that we could experience self awareness and that it is not just a side effect 
>of having sufficient brain power to be able to form complex thoughts.
>
>-Chris
>
>Brent
>
>
>
>
>>Brent
>>
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