On 2 October 2013 00:46, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> On 01 Oct 2013, at 15:31, Pierz wrote:
>> Maybe. It would be a lot more profound if we definitely *could* reproduce
>> the brain's behaviour. The devil is in the detail as they say. But a
>> challenge to Chalmer's position has occurred to me. It seems to me that
>> Bruno has convincingly argued that *if* comp holds, then consciousness
>> supervenes on the computation, not on the physical matter. But functionalism
>> suggests that what counts is the output, not the manner in which it as
>> arrived at. That is to say, the brain or whatever neural subunit or computer
>> is doing the processing is a black box. You input something and then read
>> the output, but the intervening steps don't matter. Consider what this might
>> mean in terms of a brain.
> That's not clear to me. The question is "output of what". If it is the entie
> subject, this is more behaviorism than functionalism.
> Putnam's functionalism makes clear that we have to take the output of the
> neurons into account.
> Comp is functionalism, but with the idea that we don't know the level of
> substitution, so it might be that we have to take into account the oputput
> of the gluons in our atoms (so comp makes clear that it only ask for the
> existence of a level of substitution, and then show that no machine can know
> for sure its subst. level, making Putnam's sort of functionalism a bit
>> Let's say a vastly advanced alien species comes to earth. It looks at our
>> puny little brains and decides to make one to fool us. This constructed
>> person/brain receives normal conversational input and outputs conversation
>> that it knows will perfectly mimic a human being. But in fact the computer
>> doing this processing is vastly superior to the human brain. It's like a
>> modern PC emulating a TRS-80, except much more so. When it computes/thinks
>> up a response, it draws on a vast amount of knowledge, intelligence and
>> creativity and accesses qualia undreamed of by a human. Yet its response
>> will completely fool any normal human and will pass Turing tests till the
>> cows come home. What this thought experiment shows is that, while
>> half-qualia may be absurd, it most certainly is possible to reproduce the
>> outputs of a brain without replicating its qualia. It might have completely
>> different qualia, just as a very good actor's emotions can't be
>> distinguished from the real thing, even though his or her internal
>> experience is quite different. And if qualia can be quite different even
>> though the functional outputs are the same, this does seem to leave
>> functionalism in something of a quandary. All we can say is that there must
>> be some kind of qualia occurring, rather a different result from what
>> Chalmers is claiming. When we extend this type of scenario to artificial
>> neurons or partial brain prostheses as in Chamer's paper, we quickly run up
>> against perplexing problems. Imagine the advanced alien provides these
>> prostheses. It takes the same inputs and generates the same correct outputs,
>> but it processes those inputs within a much vaster, more complex system.
>> Does the brain utilizing this advanced prosthesis experience a kind of
>> expanded consciousness because of this, without that difference being
>> detectable? Or do the qualia remain somehow confined to the prosthesis
>> (whatever that means)? These crazy quandaries suggest to me that basically,
>> we don't know shit.
> Hmm, I am not convinced. "Chalmers argument" is that to get a philosophical
> zombie, the fading argument shows that you have to go through half-qualia,
> which is absurd. His goal (here) is to show that "no qualia" is absurd.
> That the qualia can be different is known in the qualia literature, and is a
> big open problem per se. But Chalmers argues only that "no qualia" is
> absurd, indeed because it would needs some absurd notion of intermediate
> half qualia.
> My be I miss a point. Stathis can clarify this furher.
The argument is simply summarised thus: it is impossible even for God
to make a brain prosthesis that reproduces the I/O behaviour but has
different qualia. This is a proof of comp, provided that brain physics
is computable, or functionalism if brain physics is not computable.
Non-comp functionalism may entail, for example, that the replacement
brain contain a hypercomputer.
> Eventually the qualia is determined by infinitely many number relations, and
> a brain filters them. It does not create them, like no machine can create
> PI, only "re-compute" it, somehow. The anlogy here break sown as qualia are
> purely first person notion, which explains why they are distributed on the
> whole universal dovetailing (sigma_1 arithmetic).
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