Bruno, I can't help it: I liked Richard's interjection. Arithmetics (even
in your fundamental vision - I suppose) needs 'human logic' to propagate
etc., no matter how the elements may be thought to pre-date humans. Does a
stone, or the 'root' of a plant, a microbe, or a cloud follow (evolve?
apply?) your math- equations? I mean: not in their 'existence', but AS MATH
(observing numbers, i.e. arithmetix)?
Did you mean that (by UD) did humans got generated into logically thinking
creatures? Where in Nature would you detect (whole-sale) arithmetics?
(Meaning: beyond the 1, a pair, ~many etc. generalities? Prime numbers??)
That would make us UNIQUE - not just a level in Nature. (Children of God -
the Creator?)
JM


On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 12 Oct 2013, at 15:24, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
> Human intelligence seems to be required for comp to work.
>
>
> ?
>
> We need only Löbian-Turing intelligence which exists as a consequence of
> elementary arithmetic.
>
> The theory is:
>
> identity logic +
> ((K, x), y) = x
> (((S, x), y), z) = ((x, z), (y, z))
>
> Where do you see an assumption about humans?
>
> Well, a best know but equivalent (with respecto the Everything goal)
> theory is:
>
> classical logic +
> 0 ≠ s(x)
> s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
> x+0 = x
> x+s(y) = s(x+y)
> x*0=0
> x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
>
> Again, where do you see an assumption about human.
>
> Human are used in UDA, of course, to explain comp to humans, but the
> result is that the theories above, although quite incomplete with respect
> to the arithmetical truth, are complete for the ontology needed to explain
> physics and consciousness.
> We need only a good dreamer, and the discovery of the relative universal
> numbers (in the sense of Post, Turing, Church, etc.) provides an excellent
> candidate, especially with comp, of course.
>
>
>
>
> So how did evolution happen before humans existed?
>
>
> The UD generates the human before evolution, but their statistical weight
> is probably not relevant. Eventually the UD has to emulate some very long
> histories and the humans get a deeper and deeper past.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 3:39 AM, freqflyer07281972 <
> thismindisbud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Russell,
>>
>> Back in 2012, you made the following claims regarding my general attack
>> on Bruno's
>> "mathematical reductionism":
>>
>> 1) Self-awareness is a requirement for consciousness
>>
>> 2) We expect to find ourselves in an environment sufficiently rich and
>> complex to support self-aware structures (by Anthropic Principle), but
>> not more complex than necessary (Occams Razor). Sort of like
>> Einstein's principle "As simple as possible, and no simpler."
>>
>> 3) The simplest environment generating a given level of complexity is
>> one that has arisen as a result of evolution from a much simpler
>> initial state. This is the evolution in the multiverse observation,
>> that evolution is the only creative (or information generating)
>> process.
>>
>> 4) Evolutionary processes work with populations, so automatically,
>> you must have other self-aware entities in your world, and
>> consequently inter-subjectivity.
>>
>>
>> My question to you, as basic as it might seem, is... have you changed
>> your
>> mind about any of these presuppositions?
>>
>> Yours forever in the multiverse,
>> Dan
>>
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