Bruno,

That explanation is very helpful.

Can I conclude that human beings
and perhaps all other kinds of beings,
are then arithmetic machines
that can participate in the hallucinations?
Richard


On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 13 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
> Bruno,
>
> Even in my Metaverse String cosmology I can understand how from the
> beginning of the Metaverse how its machine can generate all Lobian numbers
> including arithmetic humans and aliens long before our universe exists and
> evolves conscious physical beings. What I do not understand is why those
> physical beings are needed.
>
>
> They are not needed in the assumptions or axioms. They are "needed"
> because the löbian numbers cannot avoid them, and this should be understood
> through the whole UDA. Then the math confirms this in some way.
>
>
>
>
> You say they are needed as much a a particular number is needed. But that
> I do not understand. Particular numbers I presume are included in all the
> Lobian numbers. so why are physical beings needed?
>
>
> I assume the natural numbers, and elementary arithmetic. I do have the
> axioms:
>
> 0 ≠ s(x)
> s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
> x+0 = x
> x+s(y) = s(x+y)
> x*0=0
> x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
>
> In that theory I can prove the existence of the Löbian numbers, which
> basically will be the numbers coding the belief in classical logic + the
> axioms:
>
> 0 ≠ s(x)
> s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
> x+0 = x
> x+s(y) = s(x+y)
> x*0=0
> x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
> (F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x)   for each F, arithmetical formula.
>
> And those are the numbers that I will interview about their "persistent
> physical hallucinations".
>
> I call those number Löbian because they are characterized by Löb's
> formula: []([]p -> p) -> []p, with "[]" denoting their arithmetical
> provability predicate.
>
>
>
>
>
> It seems to me, especially in view of MWI,
>
>
> Keep in mind that UDA forces us to abandon all physical assumptions, so we
> can't assume QM, nor time, space, energy, etc. Those are emergent pattern
> in the mind of the average Löbian numbers.
>
>
>
> that the machine generates everything to begin with including the passage
> of time. But you seem to claim that physical beings are needed to generate
> all Lobian numbers.
>
>
> There are no physical beings at all in the ontology (which contains only
> 0, s(0), ...). Physical beings are mental pattern in the mind of those
> numbers. It *is* a form of idealism, but it is objective idealism, as the
> physical reality will be a common and sharable pattern in the objective
> mind of all Löbian numbers.
>
>
>
> That I do not understand at all.
>
>
> The TOE is elementary arithmetic (or Turing equivalent). The "observable"
> are recovered from sharable persistent hallucinations. It is an inside view
> by the machines/numbers.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 13 Oct 2013, at 12:56, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>
>> Bruno: ? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called sufficiently
>> rich theories, which exists in arithmetic, in a variety of relative way).
>>
>> Richard: If the Lobian number exists, why are humans or aliens needed at
>> all?
>>
>>
>> They are needed like the number 1879600442671119229 is needed.
>>
>> Once all löbian numbers exist, humans and aliens exists because they are
>> Löbian numbers, among many.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruno: I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates a
>> program emulating you, before generating the complete emulation of the
>> possible quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actual story of the
>> universe.
>>
>> Richard: Are you saying that I existed before the universe? In what realm
>> did I exist?
>>
>>
>> In the realm of elementary arithmetic.
>>
>> It contains infinitely many computations going through you actual states.
>>
>> Apparently we share many of those computations. We have to explain why.
>> We can succeed only in deriving the physical laws from that complex
>> computations statistics.
>>
>> That's the result:  a problem for the computationalist.
>>
>> I illustrate how to solve the problem in a way which takes into account
>> what machines (us) can really justify about us, and what is true about us,
>> but that we cannot justify.
>> This takes unavoidable intensional nuances which are helpful to avoid the
>> elimination of consciousness and persons, and to provide an arithmetical
>> interpretation of Plotinus and Plato.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 12 Oct 2013, at 19:40, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>>
>>> Bruno: We need only a good dreamer, and the discovery of the relative
>>> universal numbers
>>>
>>> Richard: Who other than humans can do that?
>>>
>>>
>>> ? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called sufficiently rich
>>> theories, which exists in arithmetic, in a variety of relative way).
>>>
>>> We might argue that only humans can build huge telescopes and see the
>>> far away galaxies, but this would not imply that those galaxies needs
>>> humans to exist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruno: The UD generates the human before evolution. Do you claim that
>>> humans change the past?
>>>
>>>
>>> No, because the physical past is an indexical which eventually subsume
>>> the whole UD*, and thus some part of arithmetic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard: So humans do not evolve. Sounds like creationism.
>>>
>>>
>>> I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates a program
>>> emulating you, before generating the complete emulation of the possible
>>> quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actual story of the universe.
>>>
>>> Evolution, is, most plausibly a statistically exact account of our local
>>> history.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So far you have not dismissed my inference that comp needs humans to
>>> work.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some alien can also bet that they have a brain, and that it is Turing
>>> emulable. In arithmetic there are infinities of numbers which, relatively
>>> to some universal number arrives at that same conclusion (and in this case
>>> we know that they are correct).
>>> Do you think we need humans for having the truth that 1+1=2? If you
>>> agree we don't, then we don't humans to have the larger set of löbian
>>> numbers and their dreams, from which physical realities emerges.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> IMO if true, that in itself dismisses comp as contrary to established
>>> science.
>>>
>>>
>>> We need humans only to explain comp to humans, but comp is basically the
>>> idea that machine/numbers can manifest consciousness in their relevant
>>> relative environment/computations.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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