Bruno, That explanation is very helpful.

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Can I conclude that human beings and perhaps all other kinds of beings, are then arithmetic machines that can participate in the hallucinations? Richard On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 13 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > Bruno, > > Even in my Metaverse String cosmology I can understand how from the > beginning of the Metaverse how its machine can generate all Lobian numbers > including arithmetic humans and aliens long before our universe exists and > evolves conscious physical beings. What I do not understand is why those > physical beings are needed. > > > They are not needed in the assumptions or axioms. They are "needed" > because the löbian numbers cannot avoid them, and this should be understood > through the whole UDA. Then the math confirms this in some way. > > > > > You say they are needed as much a a particular number is needed. But that > I do not understand. Particular numbers I presume are included in all the > Lobian numbers. so why are physical beings needed? > > > I assume the natural numbers, and elementary arithmetic. I do have the > axioms: > > 0 ≠ s(x) > s(x) = s(y) -> x = y > x+0 = x > x+s(y) = s(x+y) > x*0=0 > x*s(y)=(x*y)+x > > In that theory I can prove the existence of the Löbian numbers, which > basically will be the numbers coding the belief in classical logic + the > axioms: > > 0 ≠ s(x) > s(x) = s(y) -> x = y > x+0 = x > x+s(y) = s(x+y) > x*0=0 > x*s(y)=(x*y)+x > (F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x) for each F, arithmetical formula. > > And those are the numbers that I will interview about their "persistent > physical hallucinations". > > I call those number Löbian because they are characterized by Löb's > formula: []([]p -> p) -> []p, with "[]" denoting their arithmetical > provability predicate. > > > > > > It seems to me, especially in view of MWI, > > > Keep in mind that UDA forces us to abandon all physical assumptions, so we > can't assume QM, nor time, space, energy, etc. Those are emergent pattern > in the mind of the average Löbian numbers. > > > > that the machine generates everything to begin with including the passage > of time. But you seem to claim that physical beings are needed to generate > all Lobian numbers. > > > There are no physical beings at all in the ontology (which contains only > 0, s(0), ...). Physical beings are mental pattern in the mind of those > numbers. It *is* a form of idealism, but it is objective idealism, as the > physical reality will be a common and sharable pattern in the objective > mind of all Löbian numbers. > > > > That I do not understand at all. > > > The TOE is elementary arithmetic (or Turing equivalent). The "observable" > are recovered from sharable persistent hallucinations. It is an inside view > by the machines/numbers. > > Bruno > > > > > Richard > > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 13 Oct 2013, at 12:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: >> >> Bruno: ? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called sufficiently >> rich theories, which exists in arithmetic, in a variety of relative way). >> >> Richard: If the Lobian number exists, why are humans or aliens needed at >> all? >> >> >> They are needed like the number 1879600442671119229 is needed. >> >> Once all löbian numbers exist, humans and aliens exists because they are >> Löbian numbers, among many. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bruno: I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates a >> program emulating you, before generating the complete emulation of the >> possible quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actual story of the >> universe. >> >> Richard: Are you saying that I existed before the universe? In what realm >> did I exist? >> >> >> In the realm of elementary arithmetic. >> >> It contains infinitely many computations going through you actual states. >> >> Apparently we share many of those computations. We have to explain why. >> We can succeed only in deriving the physical laws from that complex >> computations statistics. >> >> That's the result: a problem for the computationalist. >> >> I illustrate how to solve the problem in a way which takes into account >> what machines (us) can really justify about us, and what is true about us, >> but that we cannot justify. >> This takes unavoidable intensional nuances which are helpful to avoid the >> elimination of consciousness and persons, and to provide an arithmetical >> interpretation of Plotinus and Plato. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 12 Oct 2013, at 19:40, Richard Ruquist wrote: >>> >>> Bruno: We need only a good dreamer, and the discovery of the relative >>> universal numbers >>> >>> Richard: Who other than humans can do that? >>> >>> >>> ? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called sufficiently rich >>> theories, which exists in arithmetic, in a variety of relative way). >>> >>> We might argue that only humans can build huge telescopes and see the >>> far away galaxies, but this would not imply that those galaxies needs >>> humans to exist. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bruno: The UD generates the human before evolution. Do you claim that >>> humans change the past? >>> >>> >>> No, because the physical past is an indexical which eventually subsume >>> the whole UD*, and thus some part of arithmetic. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Richard: So humans do not evolve. Sounds like creationism. >>> >>> >>> I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates a program >>> emulating you, before generating the complete emulation of the possible >>> quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actual story of the universe. >>> >>> Evolution, is, most plausibly a statistically exact account of our local >>> history. >>> >>> >>> >>> So far you have not dismissed my inference that comp needs humans to >>> work. >>> >>> >>> Some alien can also bet that they have a brain, and that it is Turing >>> emulable. In arithmetic there are infinities of numbers which, relatively >>> to some universal number arrives at that same conclusion (and in this case >>> we know that they are correct). >>> Do you think we need humans for having the truth that 1+1=2? If you >>> agree we don't, then we don't humans to have the larger set of löbian >>> numbers and their dreams, from which physical realities emerges. >>> >>> >>> >>> IMO if true, that in itself dismisses comp as contrary to established >>> science. >>> >>> >>> We need humans only to explain comp to humans, but comp is basically the >>> idea that machine/numbers can manifest consciousness in their relevant >>> relative environment/computations. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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