On 14 Oct 2013, at 10:55, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Bruno,
That explanation is very helpful.
Can I conclude that human beings
and perhaps all other kinds of beings,
are then arithmetic machines
that can participate in the hallucinations?
They can share a part of your hallucinations, yes. Reality is dream
sharing.
Logically, some other entities might be conscious yet not being
machines. They do exist abstractly, and are usually Löbian too.
(Unfortunately all examples that I know are a bit technical to
describe: Solovay mentions "true in all transitive models of ZF". It
cannot be Turing emulable, yet obeys to G and G*, but those logics are
no more complete, they are only sound). With comp, they might still
play some role in the afterlife---I am not sure.
Bruno
Richard
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 13 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Bruno,
Even in my Metaverse String cosmology I can understand how from the
beginning of the Metaverse how its machine can generate all Lobian
numbers including arithmetic humans and aliens long before our
universe exists and evolves conscious physical beings. What I do
not understand is why those physical beings are needed.
They are not needed in the assumptions or axioms. They are "needed"
because the löbian numbers cannot avoid them, and this should be
understood through the whole UDA. Then the math confirms this in
some way.
You say they are needed as much a a particular number is needed.
But that I do not understand. Particular numbers I presume are
included in all the Lobian numbers. so why are physical beings
needed?
I assume the natural numbers, and elementary arithmetic. I do have
the axioms:
0 ≠ s(x)
s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
x+0 = x
x+s(y) = s(x+y)
x*0=0
x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
In that theory I can prove the existence of the Löbian numbers,
which basically will be the numbers coding the belief in classical
logic + the axioms:
0 ≠ s(x)
s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
x+0 = x
x+s(y) = s(x+y)
x*0=0
x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
(F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x) for each F, arithmetical
formula.
And those are the numbers that I will interview about their
"persistent physical hallucinations".
I call those number Löbian because they are characterized by Löb's
formula: []([]p -> p) -> []p, with "[]" denoting their arithmetical
provability predicate.
It seems to me, especially in view of MWI,
Keep in mind that UDA forces us to abandon all physical assumptions,
so we can't assume QM, nor time, space, energy, etc. Those are
emergent pattern in the mind of the average Löbian numbers.
that the machine generates everything to begin with including the
passage of time. But you seem to claim that physical beings are
needed to generate all Lobian numbers.
There are no physical beings at all in the ontology (which contains
only 0, s(0), ...). Physical beings are mental pattern in the mind
of those numbers. It *is* a form of idealism, but it is objective
idealism, as the physical reality will be a common and sharable
pattern in the objective mind of all Löbian numbers.
That I do not understand at all.
The TOE is elementary arithmetic (or Turing equivalent). The
"observable" are recovered from sharable persistent hallucinations.
It is an inside view by the machines/numbers.
Bruno
Richard
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 13 Oct 2013, at 12:56, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Bruno: ? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called
sufficiently rich theories, which exists in arithmetic, in a
variety of relative way).
Richard: If the Lobian number exists, why are humans or aliens
needed at all?
They are needed like the number 1879600442671119229 is needed.
Once all löbian numbers exist, humans and aliens exists because
they are Löbian numbers, among many.
Bruno: I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates
a program emulating you, before generating the complete emulation
of the possible quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actual
story of the universe.
Richard: Are you saying that I existed before the universe? In
what realm did I exist?
In the realm of elementary arithmetic.
It contains infinitely many computations going through you actual
states.
Apparently we share many of those computations. We have to explain
why.
We can succeed only in deriving the physical laws from that complex
computations statistics.
That's the result: a problem for the computationalist.
I illustrate how to solve the problem in a way which takes into
account what machines (us) can really justify about us, and what is
true about us, but that we cannot justify.
This takes unavoidable intensional nuances which are helpful to
avoid the elimination of consciousness and persons, and to provide
an arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus and Plato.
Bruno
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 12 Oct 2013, at 19:40, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Bruno: We need only a good dreamer, and the discovery of the
relative universal numbers
Richard: Who other than humans can do that?
? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called sufficiently rich
theories, which exists in arithmetic, in a variety of relative way).
We might argue that only humans can build huge telescopes and see
the far away galaxies, but this would not imply that those
galaxies needs humans to exist.
Bruno: The UD generates the human before evolution. Do you claim
that humans change the past?
No, because the physical past is an indexical which eventually
subsume the whole UD*, and thus some part of arithmetic.
Richard: So humans do not evolve. Sounds like creationism.
I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates a
program emulating you, before generating the complete emulation of
the possible quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actual
story of the universe.
Evolution, is, most plausibly a statistically exact account of our
local history.
So far you have not dismissed my inference that comp needs humans
to work.
Some alien can also bet that they have a brain, and that it is
Turing emulable. In arithmetic there are infinities of numbers
which, relatively to some universal number arrives at that same
conclusion (and in this case we know that they are correct).
Do you think we need humans for having the truth that 1+1=2? If
you agree we don't, then we don't humans to have the larger set of
löbian numbers and their dreams, from which physical realities
emerges.
IMO if true, that in itself dismisses comp as contrary to
established science.
We need humans only to explain comp to humans, but comp is
basically the idea that machine/numbers can manifest consciousness
in their relevant relative environment/computations.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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