On 14 Oct 2013, at 10:55, Richard Ruquist wrote:

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Bruno, That explanation is very helpful. Can I conclude that human beings and perhaps all other kinds of beings, are then arithmetic machines that can participate in the hallucinations?

`They can share a part of your hallucinations, yes. Reality is dream`

`sharing.`

`Logically, some other entities might be conscious yet not being`

`machines. They do exist abstractly, and are usually Löbian too.`

`(Unfortunately all examples that I know are a bit technical to`

`describe: Solovay mentions "true in all transitive models of ZF". It`

`cannot be Turing emulable, yet obeys to G and G*, but those logics are`

`no more complete, they are only sound). With comp, they might still`

`play some role in the afterlife---I am not sure.`

Bruno

RichardOn Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 13 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Richard Ruquist wrote:Bruno,Even in my Metaverse String cosmology I can understand how from thebeginning of the Metaverse how its machine can generate all Lobiannumbers including arithmetic humans and aliens long before ouruniverse exists and evolves conscious physical beings. What I donot understand is why those physical beings are needed.They are not needed in the assumptions or axioms. They are "needed"because the löbian numbers cannot avoid them, and this should beunderstood through the whole UDA. Then the math confirms this insome way.You say they are needed as much a a particular number is needed.But that I do not understand. Particular numbers I presume areincluded in all the Lobian numbers. so why are physical beingsneeded?I assume the natural numbers, and elementary arithmetic. I do havethe axioms:0 ≠ s(x) s(x) = s(y) -> x = y x+0 = x x+s(y) = s(x+y) x*0=0 x*s(y)=(x*y)+xIn that theory I can prove the existence of the Löbian numbers,which basically will be the numbers coding the belief in classicallogic + the axioms:0 ≠ s(x) s(x) = s(y) -> x = y x+0 = x x+s(y) = s(x+y) x*0=0 x*s(y)=(x*y)+x(F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x) for each F, arithmeticalformula.And those are the numbers that I will interview about their"persistent physical hallucinations".I call those number Löbian because they are characterized by Löb'sformula: []([]p -> p) -> []p, with "[]" denoting their arithmeticalprovability predicate.It seems to me, especially in view of MWI,Keep in mind that UDA forces us to abandon all physical assumptions,so we can't assume QM, nor time, space, energy, etc. Those areemergent pattern in the mind of the average Löbian numbers.that the machine generates everything to begin with including thepassage of time. But you seem to claim that physical beings areneeded to generate all Lobian numbers.There are no physical beings at all in the ontology (which containsonly 0, s(0), ...). Physical beings are mental pattern in the mindof those numbers. It *is* a form of idealism, but it is objectiveidealism, as the physical reality will be a common and sharablepattern in the objective mind of all Löbian numbers.That I do not understand at all.The TOE is elementary arithmetic (or Turing equivalent). The"observable" are recovered from sharable persistent hallucinations.It is an inside view by the machines/numbers.BrunoRichardOn Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 13 Oct 2013, at 12:56, Richard Ruquist wrote:Bruno: ? The answer is the Löbian number (the so calledsufficiently rich theories, which exists in arithmetic, in avariety of relative way).Richard: If the Lobian number exists, why are humans or aliensneeded at all?They are needed like the number 1879600442671119229 is needed.Once all löbian numbers exist, humans and aliens exists becausethey are Löbian numbers, among many.Bruno: I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generatesa program emulating you, before generating the complete emulationof the possible quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actualstory of the universe.Richard: Are you saying that I existed before the universe? Inwhat realm did I exist?In the realm of elementary arithmetic.It contains infinitely many computations going through you actualstates.Apparently we share many of those computations. We have to explainwhy.We can succeed only in deriving the physical laws from that complexcomputations statistics.That's the result: a problem for the computationalist.I illustrate how to solve the problem in a way which takes intoaccount what machines (us) can really justify about us, and what istrue about us, but that we cannot justify.This takes unavoidable intensional nuances which are helpful toavoid the elimination of consciousness and persons, and to providean arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus and Plato.BrunoOn Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 12 Oct 2013, at 19:40, Richard Ruquist wrote:Bruno: We need only a good dreamer, and the discovery of therelative universal numbersRichard: Who other than humans can do that?? The answer is the Löbian number (the so called sufficiently richtheories, which exists in arithmetic, in a variety of relative way).We might argue that only humans can build huge telescopes and seethe far away galaxies, but this would not imply that thosegalaxies needs humans to exist.Bruno: The UD generates the human before evolution. Do you claimthat humans change the past?No, because the physical past is an indexical which eventuallysubsume the whole UD*, and thus some part of arithmetic.Richard: So humans do not evolve. Sounds like creationism.I was just referring to the fact that the UD will generates aprogram emulating you, before generating the complete emulation ofthe possible quantum vacuum fluctuation leading to the actualstory of the universe.Evolution, is, most plausibly a statistically exact account of ourlocal history.So far you have not dismissed my inference that comp needs humansto work.Some alien can also bet that they have a brain, and that it isTuring emulable. In arithmetic there are infinities of numberswhich, relatively to some universal number arrives at that sameconclusion (and in this case we know that they are correct).Do you think we need humans for having the truth that 1+1=2? Ifyou agree we don't, then we don't humans to have the larger set oflöbian numbers and their dreams, from which physical realitiesemerges.IMO if true, that in itself dismisses comp as contrary toestablished science.We need humans only to explain comp to humans, but comp isbasically the idea that machine/numbers can manifest consciousnessin their relevant relative environment/computations.Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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