On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 9:08:53 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
> On 30 October 2013 00:37, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> >> >> Physics is what happens in the natural world due to natural 
> processes. 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > That sentence should win some kind of prize for containing the most 
> >> > logical 
> >> > fallacies. 
> >> 
> >> I suppose you could say causes outside of the physical universe, such 
> >> as God or top-down causation by consciousness, are part of nature and 
> >> part of physics, but most people would not use these words this way. 
> > 
> > 
> > From my view, there is no public physical universe that is not also 
> private 
> > physical experience. There is no unseen light, no unheard sound, to 
> unfelt 
> > bodies. To me, "outside the physical universe" means only a dream or 
> > imagination, where what is felt is uncoupled from public effect. While 
> we 
> > dream, our body remains present in its inertial frame of animal 
> experience, 
> > but it has no perspective of its own. 
> > 
> > People's words are outdated. We have played out a hand that was picked 
> > centuries ago by dead geniuses. Since then we have not had a chance to 
> pause 
> > and reassess what the strange new ideas of Einstein and Heisenberg 
> really 
> > mean when we look at the implications of them from the absolute 
> perspective. 
> > We have been playing with gigantic machines to study the fantastically 
> > distant and tiny, but no matter how far we go, it increasingly doesn't 
> make 
> > sense when compared with our own experience, and it increasingly doesn't 
> > make sense itself. 
> > 
> > Multisense Realism is a way to acknowledge that this has become a wild 
> goose 
> > chase, and posits that if we start over from scratch, it becomes more 
> > sensible to see relativity as identical to perceived awareness, and all 
> > physical forces naturally fall out of that awareness as elaboration of 
> > sensory motive inertia. Two different feelers sharing the same feeling 
> are 
> > entangled. They are not particles but if a third feeler will feel a 
> > particulate stimulation from them. Space and time might be created here, 
> by 
> > the disentanglement - the indifference and entropy which extends out in 
> > response to the significance of making a difference with sense 
> interaction. 
> > 
> > Craig 
> Consciousness is not externally detectable.

Externality is not detectable outside of consciousness. Which would make 
perfect sense if physics supervenes on consciousness (really sense). 

> If it were, we would not 
> be having these discussions: instead, we would wave the Consciousness 
> Detector over the computer and read out the result. So if 
> consciousness has top-down causal efficacy, that would mean an 
> undetectable force caused matter to move.

No, it would mean nothing of the sort. Every force is detectable only 
through consciousness. There is no force outside of consciousness,  no 
"charge" or "field". All of it is feeling and somewhat intentional effect. 
No matter how many times I say it, how many metaphors I use, you will never 
be able to see that the director of a movie need not be present within the 
movie projector to cause the movie to occur. Your view of the universe has 
no room for you to exist in it. It has no discernment between life and 
death, person or object. You would need a massive brain event to interrupt 
your left hemisphere long enough to guess that there is a whole other half 
of the universe that you are missing.

> In experiments, that would 
> look like a magical or supernatural effect. If you don't like the 
> words "magical" or "supernatural" then use different words, but no 
> such strange effects have been observed. 

Every effect that can ever be observed is a strange effect. You aren't 
getting that sense is Absolute.


> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou 

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