On 30 Oct 2013, at 03:17, John Mikes wrote:

Bruno, Craig and Learned discussion partners:
it is hard even to "read-in" into the endless back-and-forth you exude. At least for me - pretending that I still retain may subjectivity (don't misunderstand: I deny anything 'objective' if not adjusted by our own sub). We are not capable of even following the infinite complexity of which we got little morsels to chew on. ---- Now I have a question:

What would you call  -  S E N S E  - ?
Craig: the Absolute.
We cannot know anything 'absolute', only a humanly adjusted shadow of it.

Bruno states that the arithmetic 'truth' can (or rather could?) express the absolute - but never showed - even tried how to DO IT.

I think I did. It comes from the fact that elementary arithmetical proposition are true independently of us, and that if comp is correct, it is absolutely undecidable that there is anything more. Keep in mind that we know since Gödel that the arithmetical truth transcend all possible theories.



Not even hinted to a method HOW to attempt it. ( Comp? or using many- many numbers???)

"In your brain"??? WHO is there pretending to be the SELF ("I") ?

The doctor does not need to know what is your first person I, to understand that the brain in your skull is indeed your brain.




whatever is in our brain (matter, physiological energy, motion and connectivity) has been accounted for in reductionist sciences

OK.


- no 'sense' sowed up.

It can't. You cannot see in any 3p way, any 1p feature. This can be explained by machine about their own 1p.
G* proves Bp & p   <-> Bp, but G does not.


If we detect 'something like that', it is self-referential thinking and changes from era to era (maybe only in days). No 1st person. We just think of it.

But it is what we need to recover the stable physical reality.



And feel so.
And: talk about it.
So: what are we talking about?

About the relation between mind (histories and 1p notions) and body- code (computations and 3p notion).

Bruno



John M


On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 29 Oct 2013, at 16:17, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:56:44 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 29 Oct 2013, at 14:23, Craig Weinberg wrote:

>
>
> On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 3:05:52 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 28 Oct 2013, at 19:47, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:38:58 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> On 28 Oct 2013, at 15:12, John Mikes wrote:
>>
>>> What do you call "ANY PHYSICS"? is there a "God given" marvel
>>> (like any other religious miracle to believe in) callable "PHYSICS"?
>>
>> I think Stathis was referring to any third person describable
>> lawful laws, not relying to actual infinities or magic.
>>
>> Craig want to add some primary sense, and make that sense
>> contradict such deterministic law.
>>
>> That would be silly. Nothing that I have ever proposed contradicts
>> a single scientific observation, by definition. I am not adding
>> anything, I am absorbing all disembodied pseudo-substances into
>> sense: "Laws", "Forces", "Fields", "Wavefunctions",
>> "Probability"...all of that invisible voodoo is gone. It's all
>> primordial pansensitivity experiencing its own alienation and re-
>> constellation.
>
> Looks like a sense-of-the-gap to me.
>
> Not at all. What we have now is a force-of-the-gap, field-of-the-
> gap, etc.

No. This has been solved. Indeed, so precisely that it is only a
question of solving diophantine equation to compare the physics of
machine and the physics we infer from observation. Primary matter is a
matter-of-the-gap, OK. But not the matter as described by the
introspective machine.

Not the matter (because that actually is concretely sensed),


You might be dreaming.




but forces, fields, and laws because they are magical ideas that appear out of nowhere and do things without any tangible presence. It's just haunted space. That the haunting of the space can be precisely mapped and deconstructed mathematically does not give it the power to change matter. What has been overlooked is the possibility that matter is an appearance within experience, of experience which has alienated itself - followed different histories in parallel or phase-shift.




> I am merging all of the empty bubbles and finding that none could be
> anything more or less than sense.

This cannot satisfy me, as I am looking to some understanding of what
is sense, where does it come from, why does it provide non justifiable
feature like consciousness, etc.

There is no understanding needed to what sense is - it is the most self-evident phenomena possible as it is self-evidence period, full stop.

Yes, you are right. But it is not evident in any communicable way, if only because it escapes definition. So we can't use it to do a theory of 1p. It is an important data, and its immediacy and obviousness is certainly a clue. Then, if you do the math, you can intellectually understand why machines looking inward describes something which looks very much like that.






All that is, is because it has been made evident within some sensory context.

You bet. It is OK.




There is nothing there to be evident except for this relativity of presence shared with the contents and contexts of eternity. Justification is nothing but a sense of comparison among subordinate sense experience. You are looking for something that you have already found but won't accept it.

I found it in my head, and I show that all universal machine "looking in their head" can find something quite similar.

You are just insulting the machine, by what looks like prejudice, as you admit not trying to study them.




I am showing you *all of this* is sense, and you are responding that you are looking for something *else*.

Not really. I want to understand the origin of sense.




If you accept the premise however (yes, doctor of primordial identity pansensitivity) then you must accept that it is ontologically impossible that there could be anything *else*, by definition.

I want my proof to be mechanically checkable. I play the game of science, you don't. I have no problem with that, except when you draw negative conclusion. Humans are used to make negative prose on possible others. To make prose and get negative proposition is, with all my naive frankness, bad philosophy. Jewish, Black, Indians, Women, Gay, Marijuana smokers, are often victims of that type of philosophy.




Unlike Comp, it does not assert the supremacy of arithmetic truth, but then add in dreaming numbers, resurrection by mechanical incantation, duplicated persons, machines emulating other machines which think they aren't machines (even though Comp prohibits any possibility of what else there would be besides machines.).

Not at all. Arithmetical Truth is full of gods, and daemons, which are non-machines. Comp is a vaccine against the reductionism of the finite, and the infinite. To understand comp is to understand the abyssalness of the mindscape. Comp prohibits nothing, not even 0=1, although we better should hope it is not the case.



Comp may mistake self referential logic for a self,

Comp does not mistake the self-referential logic for the self. There is no reason why comp would do such a big mistake.




but I don't. I have no problem a sentence that we read as "this sentence is lying" as a trivial syntactic contradiction rather than a profound puzzle that reveals the ontology of consciousness.

That's Tarski. You need both Gödel and Tarski to get the Bp & p versus Bp nuances.






To start from sense is like to start from God. This answers nothing
(even if there is a God).

It is to start before God, and before arithmetic, truth, and even before 'starting'. Your are still vastly underestimating the hubris that I intend. Sense = the Absolute, means that there has never been anything else, and there can never be anything else.

It looks like the arithmetical truth.

What makes you so sure that it is not arithmetical truth?






On the contrary, comp explains 100% of matter, and 99,9% of sense, but
explain 100% of why it remains 0.01% of a necessary non comprehensible
aspect of the inside first person view.

The entire universe fits in the 0,1% of sense that comp fails to find. Everything else is a reflection of that sense. Comp is inside out.

Meaning it is the same thing. Except with comp the sun in law enjoy the steak, where with your sense "theory" he does not, sadly.






Anyway, the solution is testable, so you should be happy that we might
refute comp.

Comp may be testable (using consciousness) but consciousness is not testable using comp.

Consciousness is not testable, using what you want.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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