On 24 Nov 2013, at 14:35, Samiya Illias wrote:

Bruno asks: "Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality?"

We must, otherwise this life itself doesn't make any sense.


That is not entirely clear to me. In a sense, I can agree, but this is because the natural numbers, and addition and multiplication makes already *sense* to me. From that sense, much more sense can develop. And *we* can add even more sense in some creative way.




There has to be a purpose, and there has to be some sort of an outcome.


That is still an open problem for me (with or without comp). Computationalism, I think, is useful just by showing that this question is difficult, notably to some intrinsic vocabulary problem.

In computer science the notion of goal and purpose is not so hard (Mars Rover's purpose is to send us as many information about Mars from the tools it disposes of, for example). I guess you mean that there should be a universal purpose, but I am not sure it is more than add and multiply.

Interesting question. It is the place where I find both Plotinus and the universal machine quite cryptic.

It is the question of personhood of "God". With comp (+Theaetetus) you can give a personhood to the inner God, but the outer God is more like the Tao, or the Indra Net, it is "just" (arithmetical) truth yet so far beyond us that .... Well, open problem.

Bruno







On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 24 Nov 2013, at 10:06, LizR wrote:

To be exact it's the belief that no gods exist, i.e. that "theism" is wrong. But otherwise it does seem to echo Aristotle and Plato, at least as far as I understand them.


Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, which is close to not making much sense to me (even without comp). This is well illustrated by the french philosophers like La Mettrie and Sade, defending the right to do what you want in your life (including torturing children and women), as you have only one life to profit on. It is part of the origin of the political materialism, implemented in both communism and capitalism, and indeed both are aggressive with any form of spiritualism, and confuse a rich life with a life of rich.

The big conceptual difference between Aristotle and Plato is that in Aristotle there is a belief in a primitive material universe, where for Plato, the material universe is a shadow (an emanation, a border, a reflection, a projection,...) of something else (the one, God, the universal dream, etc.).

It is the opposition between naturalism (materialism, physicalism), and the other conceptions of reality (which can still be rational, like with the antic greeks and Indians).

Atheists and Christians are alike. They have the same conception of the creator (the first to deny it, the second to believe in it), and the same conception of the creation (a material universe).

The real "religious" debate is about the primitive or not existence of the physical reality. Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality?

Bruno




On 24 November 2013 04:56, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 23 Nov 2013, at 14:05, Roger Clough wrote:



Atheism is wish fulfillment.


Yes. Notably. I agree.

It is the fuzzy belief that the Christian God does not exist, together with the belief in the Christian "Matter".

The debate between Atheists and Christians hides the deeper debate between Aristotle and Plato.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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