On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote:

On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote:


On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote:

    > Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife,


Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be linked. There could be a God and no afterlife or a afterlife and no God; or neither could exist or both could.

If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife, it means you can conceive a non Christian God, which is nice, but contradicts the main atheist statements you already did in preceding conversations.

How does being able to conceive a non-Christian God contradict being an atheist?? I can conceive many different gods that I don't believe in.

Can you conceive a God in which you do believe?

That was for John Clark who defined once God by the Christian God.

Also, if you can conceive a Non Christian God, it becomes more difficult to *believe* in the non existence of God.

I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I see no reason to believe any of them exist.







We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that notion is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on which atheists agreed.

It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'.

But "theist" is not clear.

My point exactly.

Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science, we try to get a concept as independent of human and culture as possible.







I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can search about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is).

Except nobody here is speaking Greek. And the Greeks had plenty of gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to deception.

I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish (with Maimonides, to some extent).

Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge Greek philosophy into the Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity. But the abrahamic religions owe far more to the Babylonian, Egyptian, and Zoroastrian religions than to Greek.



It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT flat, that Earth has disappeared. We just correct our theory of Earth. Why couldn't we do that with the notion of God?

Well for one thing, we can point to the Earth and say "That." Shall we just correct our theory of Vulcan and instead of it being a planet identical to Earth but which is always behind the Sun it will be a conceptual planet that has no observable effects but which we will say it exists in the mathematical way: It satisfies some propositions. Then we can keep the word "Vulcan" and persecute whoever denies its existence.

Brent


Bruno




Brent

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