On 03 Dec 2013, at 21:53, meekerdb wrote:
On 12/3/2013 10:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Dec 2013, at 19:11, meekerdb wrote:
On 12/2/2013 1:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
wants to be worshiped, judges people and rewards and punishes
That's a legend used to put people in place so that they will be
worshiped, so that they can judged other people, reward and
Why do you credit such things. Why can you believe that we should
listen to them? You are the one giving them importance, and by
arguing against a scientific approach to "God, souls, afterlife,
meaning, etc." you will maintain the current fairy tale aspect in
theology, and you will contribute in maintaining them in power.
I don't credit such things.
So why do you come back on it? Why not abstract ourself from the
fairy tales, once and for all, if we don't credit them.
Because billions of people believe (or pretend to believe) the fairy
tales and want to make public policy based on their book of fairy
tales. In the U.S., before some courts ruled that leading prayers
in public schools was unconstitutional, the fundamentalist churches
did not participate in politics. The held themselves to be
concerned with an unearthly, spiritual realm that transcended
politics. But the prayer in school ruling caused them to become
activists and they were seen as resource by the conservative
Republicans that had taken over southern politics after the civil
rights act of 1964. Since then they have campaigned politically to
outlaw abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, teaching
evolution, deny global warming, and expand Israel.
That is a result of having separated theology from science.
But the idea is important because so many people believe it
And they are wrong on many things, but perhaps not on everything,
so why not try to show them a less naive approach? Their own
theologian are not that naïve. And their are many approaches and
conception of God, Gods, and Goddesses, It or That.
Which theologians? There is no agreement among theologians.
There are agreements and there are disagreements. Also among Quantum
The problem is that we have no come back to the free spiritual open-
mind that is needed in science to progress.
Absence of agreement is what makes science possible.
And large sects reject even the idea of relying on theologians; they
believe that they should only rely on their own reading of their
holy books (remember the protestant reformation?). And even among
those who do rely on a priesthood to interpret for them, I don't see
that the priesthood has communicated the God of your theology.
They would lose their job. But if theology come back to academy and
the classroom, with the scientific attitude, they would.
By mocking theology you keep it in the hand of the exploiters of
Also, to be sure, I know Christians who are real atheists. They
keep the label by solidarity with the community or the family or
I let God counts the genuine believers :)
- and you are the one that gives them support by writing that God
is really an important rational concept, using the name of the
bearded man in the sky they believe in when you really mean
something completely different.
Only the "fairy tale" aspect is different, but if you read the
theologians, you might revise that opinion.
I think you only read theologians that you agree with. I googled
"famous theologians" and find Christian and Jewish apologists, not
seekers for ur.
Googling might not be enough, or take more time.
Years ago, when I google on "snus" (oral tobacco), the 20 first sites
where the one reporting the most fake papers you can find on "oral
tobacco". Given that on god we are brainwashed 1430 years more than on
drug, it is hardly astonishing that a simple Googling will reflect the
lies instead of the serious inquirers.
I think it is your very attitude which helps the bandits to keep
"theology" as a manipulative incorrigible machine.
Your "God" has no overlap with the common usage of the Big Daddy
in the sky.
I think it has enough common points, I think, especially from the
points of view of comparative theology.
Of course it is an open problem if it is a Daddy or a Mommy or even
if that question makes sense. With comp, it is not clear if X can
be a person, or can be conceive by a machine as being a person.
The common points are, that God is a X such that
- X has no name, no description,
- X is responsible for your life and lives, the biology, the
psychology, the physics,
What does 'responsible' mean? It can be simple causality: The wind
was responsible for the tree falling. Or it can imply an ethical
choice: Madoff was responsible for the deception. The latter
meaning slips in the idea that X is a person.
Or it can be a logical reason. Or something else.
- If X get a name, Lies happen and its name multiplies,
Lies happen anyway.
- X is not computable,
- X is not arithmetical,
Those may be true of lots of things.
Indeed, even on Matter. In science we don't fear to extend the concept
range. You would have been against naming 0, 1, and 2 "numbers",
because "number" meant numerous at the start.
You can always add axioms, if you feel the need, but about God you
cannot be serious and hope for a categorical theory. This already does
not exist for the natural numbers structure.
- X attracts or repulse Souls,
You're using "souls" in a definition of "God"? Definitions should
be in terms of things that are better understood than those defined.
You can use first person. I was just illustrating, and you know the
definition used in comp (in UDA and AUDA).
Then we can look in arithmetic, and around, if something match and
try questioning the (Löbian) machine, like "is God competent (like
in Plotinus, and most religion) or is God incompetent (like with
the Gnostics)?". And many other questions.
Cantor took the pain to explain to the Pope that, if he did indeed
give name to infinities, he was still unable to name the infinity
of infinities, and that he was not naming God. I don't think he
meant a "big Daddy in the sky".
But you think you're naming God as the unprovable truths of
No, because I explain in detail why arithmetical truth is not nameable
by a correct arithmetical machine. At the meta level we have tools to
talk about what a machine cannot express, yet can encounter in
Scientist modesty in machine theology forces us into agnosticism
and cautious, about the relation between Truth and Machines.
A TOE is necessary a theology, as it must let open or decide if
there is 0, or 1, or 2, ... gods, with this or that definition of
You can call it theonomy (by the assocation theonomy/theology being
"astronomy/astrology"). But that would be a sort of error similar
to lifting the theology of the correct machine on ourself, like if
we could know publicly that we are correct.
Changing the vocabulary would be like taking the words too much
Then why not use "Zeus"?
If I use "Zeus", people will take time to understand I am talking on
"God", indeed: in a large sense of "God". They will think I want say
something special to some more particular god.
You seem to argue both ways: Really serious theology should use
"God" because really serious theologians use it.
... because everyone use it, already in a very rich and variate number
of sense. Note that in most paper I don't use it. I use "One", in
But using less misleading language would be taking words too
A more precise vocabulary on "god" does not make sense, as it would
indicate we are taking the word too much seriously. I can call it TAO
when discussing with chinese, but if I use TAO with occidental, they
will believe that I am opposing it to god, which is not a priori the
case. better to use the most common word, and just remind we don't
believe in Santa Claus (if that is necessary).
God has no name. Calling it "god" and taking that name seriously is
already an admitted error. Then computer science shows that "truth"
already obeys that axiom, from the points of view of the correct
I gave some "axioms" on God, and you are the one telling me to avoid
using such notion because this or that sect says bs on it since a long
time. For me, that fact makes only more urgent to come back to
seriousness in the field, as only that will diminish the fairy tale
literalist tendency or the sectarian and the authoritative club..
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