On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
I hope you don't mind I re-answer this.
On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote:
I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch,
Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu,
Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas,
Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi,
Brahma, Brent, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue,
Charun, Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, Dawn,
Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, Ereskigal,
Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda,
Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o
(Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei,
Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki,
Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza,
Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min,
Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse,
Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord,
Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re,
RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi,
Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut,
Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime,
Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi
Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and
Zeus. But I see no reason to believe any of them exist.
So the question is: do you see a reason to disbelieve all of them?
I didn't say I "disbelieved", I said I saw no reason to believe in them. I *fail* to
believe in them. I think of "belief" as admitting degrees. I disbelieve in them FAPP,
i.e. if I have to act I will act as if they didn't exist. But I cited the list to
contradict your idea that conceiving of gods makes it harder to disbelieve in God. I think
it is the other way around; it's harder to disbelieve in something undefined. Which makes
me wonder how you can be so dogmatic that fundamental matter does not exist?
What if the list just missed the one that exists?
As far as I know, honestly, it seems to me that only Ganesh, or Ganesha, is incompatible
I really love Ganesh, though, perhaps for that very reason. When kid, Ganesh made his
father angry and the angry father cut Ganesh's head, and threw it away. Her mother was
*very* angry, and ordered the father do find a new head quickly, and the father, in the
hurry, cut the head of of the first elephant passing by, and that is why Ganesh has an
elephant head (which reminds me of the cuttlefish which I love even more).
I guess you see the problem with comp. It is a version of the brain-exchanged thought
experience. But is it really contradictory with comp? That's needs the thought
experiences with (degrees of) amnesia, and addressing the question who are we and how
many person really exist.
But how could I argue about Ohyamatsumi or RheaSabazius, Tlaloc? I would need to study
their stories to conclude.
Also, it looks that list misses the divinities that you can met by smoking some herb,
like the four kanobo Gods, and Daunarani, ... with tobacco, or simply Maria, you know,
the Mother of God, that you can meet with Salvia (according to the Christian Mazatecs).
There is no algorithm capable of deciding of two machines computes or not the same
function, so you can imagine the difficulties with the nameable non machines, or gods
And the big one, cannot be in such a list, I guess.
We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that notion is very unclear,
and I have rarely obtain a definition on which atheists agreed.
It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'.
But "theist" is not clear.
My point exactly.
But if you agree that "theist" is not clear, you agree that "atheist" is not
But "theist" is only unclear because you suppose that you can cite some ancient
philosopher as *really* defining "theism". I accept the modern theory of dictionaries
that meanings are defined by usage; and the usage of "God" is a superperson who created
the world, wants to be worshipped, and judges, rewards and punishes.
It creates an opposition where I see beliefs everywhere, and good willing people trying
to understand each others, mixed with people who insult instead.
I have many sympathy for many atheists, and I share with them important ideas, like no
artificial magic, occam razor, rationalism, and the anticleralism, and the
"anti-autoritarism" (of the first one), but they get trapped in* believing* they have
solved the theological question, or trapped in the deny that there was even a question,
leading to a form of "don't ask", which slow down the possible progresses, and becomes
an autoritarist meme by itself.
Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science, we try to get a
concept as independent of human and culture as possible.
I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can search about us, or
hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is).
Except nobody here is speaking Greek. And the Greeks had plenty of gods that had
nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to deception.
I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used
by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of
science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and
perhaps by the Jewish (with Maimonides, to some extent).
Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge Greek philosophy into
the Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity. But the abrahamic religions owe far
more to the Babylonian, Egyptian, and Zoroastrian religions than to Greek.
OK. But let us not confuse the terrestrial implementation of the religious process and
the true relations that machines can have with truth.
But you are exactly the person confusing them in your writing (if not your thoughts) by
using language of religions to express simple mathematical ideas.
As I said, thanks to Babbage, Turing, Post, Church, discoveries of the universal
numbers, we get an interesting "simple" Number Theology, which can be used as an etalon
in comparative theology.
In the first match Plato 1 and Aristotle 0.
It is not the last match in the comp soccer cup!
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