I grew up with my creators. Richard
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]>wrote: > We exist, then why should we reject the idea of having been created, just > because we are unable to comprehend or define our Creator? Is that not > intellectual dishonesty? > > Samiya > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 01-Dec-2013, at 3:33 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> Brent, > >> > >> I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. > >> > >> > >> On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or > Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, > Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, > Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, > Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, > Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, > Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, > Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, > Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, > Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman, > Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, > Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, > Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, > Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, > Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, > Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, > Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, > Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, > Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, > Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, > Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, > Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, > Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, > Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, > Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, > Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, > Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I > see no reason to believe any of them exist. > >> > >> > >> So the question is: do you see a reason to disbelieve all of them? > > > > I didn't say I "disbelieved", I said I saw no reason to believe in them. > I *fail* to believe in them. I think of "belief" as admitting degrees. I > disbelieve in them FAPP, i.e. if I have to act I will act as if they didn't > exist. But I cited the list to contradict your idea that conceiving of > gods makes it harder to disbelieve in God. I think it is the other way > around; it's harder to disbelieve in something undefined. Which makes me > wonder how you can be so dogmatic that fundamental matter does not exist? > > > > > >> What if the list just missed the one that exists? > >> > >> As far as I know, honestly, it seems to me that only Ganesh, or > Ganesha, is incompatible with comp. > >> > >> I really love Ganesh, though, perhaps for that very reason. When kid, > Ganesh made his father angry and the angry father cut Ganesh's head, and > threw it away. Her mother was *very* angry, and ordered the father do find > a new head quickly, and the father, in the hurry, cut the head of of the > first elephant passing by, and that is why Ganesh has an elephant head > (which reminds me of the cuttlefish which I love even more). > >> > >> I guess you see the problem with comp. It is a version of the > brain-exchanged thought experience. But is it really contradictory with > comp? That's needs the thought experiences with (degrees of) amnesia, and > addressing the question who are we and how many person really exist. > >> > >> But how could I argue about Ohyamatsumi or RheaSabazius, Tlaloc? I > would need to study their stories to conclude. > >> > >> Also, it looks that list misses the divinities that you can met by > smoking some herb, like the four kanobo Gods, and Daunarani, ... with > tobacco, or simply Maria, you know, the Mother of God, that you can meet > with Salvia (according to the Christian Mazatecs). > >> > >> There is no algorithm capable of deciding of two machines computes or > not the same function, so you can imagine the difficulties with the > nameable non machines, or gods and goddesses. > >> > >> And the big one, cannot be in such a list, I guess. > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that notion > is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on which atheists > agreed. > >>>>> > >>>>> It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'. > >>>> > >>>> But "theist" is not clear. > >>> > >>> My point exactly. > >> > >> > >> But if you agree that "theist" is not clear, you agree that "atheist" > is not clear either. > > > > But "theist" is only unclear because you suppose that you can cite some > ancient philosopher as *really* defining "theism". I accept the modern > theory of dictionaries that meanings are defined by usage; and the usage of > "God" is a superperson who created the world, wants to be worshipped, and > judges, rewards and punishes. > > > >> It creates an opposition where I see beliefs everywhere, and good > willing people trying to understand each others, mixed with people who > insult instead. > >> > >> I have many sympathy for many atheists, and I share with them important > ideas, like no artificial magic, occam razor, rationalism, and the > anticleralism, and the "anti-autoritarism" (of the first one), but they get > trapped in* believing* they have solved the theological question, or > trapped in the deny that there was even a question, leading to a form of > "don't ask", which slow down the possible progresses, and becomes an > autoritarist meme by itself. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>>> Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science, we > try to get a concept as independent of human and culture as possible. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can search > about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is). > >>>>> > >>>>> Except nobody here is speaking Greek. And the Greeks had plenty of > gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to > deception. > >>>> > >>>> I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did > invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly > deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of > authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish > (with Maimonides, to some extent). > >>> > >>> Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge Greek > philosophy into the Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity. But the > abrahamic religions owe far more to the Babylonian, Egyptian, and > Zoroastrian religions than to Greek. > >> > >> OK. But let us not confuse the terrestrial implementation of the > religious process and the true relations that machines can have with truth. > > > > But you are exactly the person confusing them in your writing (if not > your thoughts) by using language of religions to express simple > mathematical ideas. > > > > Brent > > > > > >> As I said, thanks to Babbage, Turing, Post, Church, discoveries of the > universal numbers, we get an interesting "simple" Number Theology, which > can be used as an etalon in comparative theology. > >> > >> In the first match Plato 1 and Aristotle 0. > >> > >> It is not the last match in the comp soccer cup! > >> > >> Bruno > >> > >> > >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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