As far as I remember, the entropy of the black hole is measured in absolute terms. that is, taking the information from the most fundamental level, at the Planck scale. But the entropy of a jar is relative to the jar broken state, not absolute.

The example of a gas is more clear than the one of the jar, which is full of traps: A hot gas that is cooled suffer a decrease of entropy measurable by a thermodinamical formula or a change in the partition function using statistical mechanics, whatever you like, , But this decrease is relative. There is no aim to measure absolute entropy.in statistical mechanincs, the zero of entroy is at temperature 0. conisidering the atoms as points. but this is just a model upon which calculate relative states of entropy. But this decrease is the same that if it were calculated in absolute terms, since the extra entropy beelow the ground state cancel out. delta H= (H +HF) -(H2-HF) here HF is the information that is not considered below the ground state up to the planch level. H is the termodinamical information.. Since HF does not vary (the atoms stay as atoms) it cancel out when calculating differences of entrophy or information) For the same purpose, we can considerate other ground states to calculate increases or decreases of entropy or information. For example in a logic gate we can consider as ground state the gate discharged, with no regard for temperature changes, or more accurately, the gate at a certain temperature. Then the gain or loss of information is easily calculable. 2013/12/5 LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> > On 5 December 2013 21:53, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I´m very interested in what you question. One of the wonders of life is >> how a living being select relevant information from the environment for >> their needs. I think that the aestetic sense is a heavy part of the >> activity of the mind at the unconscious level. Form recognition is >> computation intensive. It is also very puzzling for me how accurately >> people recognize intuitively order or disorder in agreement with what >> would be the real entropy calculated in physical terms. >> >> It seems that the filtering of information that is not relevant and to >> deal with what is relevant has been one of the main evolutionary pressures. >> A recognized pattern (for example, a porcelain jar with all its details, >> can be assimilated to a macrostate in entropic terms. A broken porcelain >> jar reduced to dust makes it undistinguisable from other jars and also >> unusable for doing a work. For example to transport water. That is why life >> needs to use low entropic things that can be recognized as interesting >> patterns. >> > > The vase is only distinct from the dust when viewed above a certain level > of "coarse graining" - so how does one assign it entropy? It seems like > entropy exists at our level, but not at the bottom level of atoms and so > on. Yet a black hole can be assigned an entropy, and you can't get much > more fundamental than that. It seems to me that there is something missing > between the thermodynamic "coarse-grained" idea of entropy and the > (presumable fundamental level) black hole entropy. How is that possible, > that the same thing exists in two different ways on two different levels, > one of which appears to be emergent? (Am I missing something important > here?) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.