No, your making the mistake of identifying a representation of a thing with the thing. The symbol 10^80 does not have 10^80 components, so to act as it is does...

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On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:29 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Dear LirZ, >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:52 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 17 December 2013 16:22, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@provensecure.com >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dear LizR, >>>> >>>> That is exactly the point that I wanted to make: 'There couldn't be >>>> an observer in such a universe, it's far too simple." There could not be >>>> one wherefore "he could deduce the existence of 17 theoretically, and >>>> work out its properties" is impossible: probability zero. >>>> >>> >>> I can't see the significance of this argument. If we take a large enough >>> number, say 10^80, that observers *can *exist, we can then ask whether >>> such observers could work out the properties of numbers greater than 10^80. >>> Since we appear to be in such a universe, the answer is yes. >>> >> >> Are we really "working it out" or are we merely doing some approximation >> that is cut off far below the 10^80 limit? So, no! >> >> > It is fully possible to represent a number 10^80 on a computer. It would > take only a few 10s of bytes of memory. This e-mail itself takes more > space up than 10^80; there are far more than 10^80 ways to write an e-mail. > > > >> >> >> >>> And we can also work out the properties of a universe containing 16 >>> objects. >>> >> >> You just pointed out that there cannot be observers in the 16 object >> universe, so why are you arguing as if they could exist in such? This is a >> typical mistake that we make: assuming that there can exist an observer of >> a universe that does not allow the existence of such an observer in that >> particular universe. To do such is a fallacy! >> > > > Like the tree falling in the woods, Stephen believes a number can only be > prime if it is written down on a piece of paper and gazed upon by a > mathematician. To me, this seems more fallacious than the idea that a > number is prime or not depending on whether or not someone is looking at it. > > >> >> >> >>> So it appears that observers in a universe which allows observers to >>> exist can work out the properties of universes containing any number of >>> objects. (Or, for short, they can do maths,) >>> >> >> Wrong, there is no actual "working it all the way out". There is, OTOH, >> lots of shortcuts and cheating by assuming that some thing is true without >> actually working the proof by demonstration. >> > > As of today, the largest known prime is over 17 million decimal digits > long. This number, by the way, is far larger than the number of Planck > volumes that could fit in the Hubble volume, but we have still discerned > its properties. You doubt its properties are really true because there > aren't this many things to count in our universe? Is 17 not prime because > slugs cannot comprehend the concept? > > > > > >> >>>> We could never experience such and thus it follows that, to us, such >>>> a universe does not exist. Now, to follow the chain of reasoning, consider >>>> the collection of universes that are such that 17 is not prime is true in >>>> that collection. Could "we" experience anything like those universes? >>>> >>> > There may be many universes in which certain things cannot be proved, but > we shouldn't take that to mean those those things are not true. > > Jason > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/1NWmK1IeadI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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