Jason, thanks for your "help". I am afraid it does not help me much.
Whatever you listed is contrary to my agnostic doubts.

Your #1:since I do not accept p[hysical phenomena as well understood
'reality', entropy is doubtful. It is bound to the level of known
circumstances (the maximum disorder that can be an ordered state if much
more elements are included) - not to mention my  insecurity when it comes
to 'data' (what kind?) etc. in an unlimited agnostic view.

Your #2-a - we are not in a position of restricting a process into
'nondeterminism' without the knowledge of ALL possible (and impossible?)
variations. The infinite interplay within the 'infinite complexity'
(unknowable to us) is in *some way* detrministic - not within our human
mind of today maybe.
#2-b: - chaotic sounds similar to random to me (resolvable in some way in
due time/course). Pseudo-random is close to the 'conditional random of the
given circumstances' what I mentioned with my discussion with Russell. The
weather is unknown, good for the weatherman to make a living. Too many so
far unobservables included into the final outcome. With your "modern"
ciphers I claim ignorance.

Your #3 comes back to the infinite (and mostly still unknowable) variables,
yet influencing OUR probabilities(?) where I see no usable ground for a
'uniform' distribution. Akin to my denial of 'statistical'.

Look at all these conditions in a framework of 1000, 3000, 5000 years ago
and imagine 2000 years hence (if you can/dare).

Agnosticism is a hard thing to abide by.

Respectfully
John Mikes


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> John,
>
> I think there are a couple of senses in which the word "random" can be
> used:
>
> 1. Uncompressibe (maximum entropy) for some information, sequence, or data
> 2. Unpredictable in theory or practice
>    a. When in theory, a non-deterministic process such as such as with
> wave-function collapse or first person indeterminacy
>    b. Unpredictable in practice, such as chaotic, or pseudo-random
> processes (the weather, or the output of modern ciphers).
> 3. A variable whose value has a some probabilistic distribution
> (especially when the distribution is uniform)
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 5:15 PM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> List:
>> Is there a 'well' acceptable definition for "R A N D O M"? (my
>> non-Indo-European mothertongue has no word expressing
>> the meaning - if I got it right. My 2nd mothertongue (German) calls it
>> "exbeliebig" = kind of: whatever I like)
>> My position as far as I got the right semantic meaning would be:
>> non-explainable by circumstances leading to it, what
>> is an agnostic marvel since in the next second I may learn HOW to explain
>> and that would be the end of randomity.
>> I accept one (nonscientific?) random-use: in math puzzles the "take any
>> number" - however many of these are joking.
>> I had some discussion with Russell and he was willing to molify his brisk
>> 'random' into a 'conditional' random within the
>> circumstances of the topic.
>>
>> John Mikes
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:40 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net>wrote:
>>
>>> Replying to Liz and Jason in a new topic as they raised the important
>>> topic of the source of randomness that deserves a separate topic.
>>>
>>> As I explain in my book on Reality, all randomness is quantum. There
>>> simply is no true classical level randomness. There is plenty of
>>> non-computability which is often mistaken for randomness but all true
>>> randomness at the classical level percolates up from the quantum level.
>>>
>>> At the fundamental computational level all computations are exact.
>>> However the way space can emerge and be dimensionalized from these
>>> computations is random which is the source of all randomness. This quantum
>>> level randomness can either be damped out or amplified up to the Classical
>>> level depending on the information structures involved.
>>>
>>> To use Liz's example of how do computers generate random numbers, they
>>> don't in themselves. As Jason points out they draw on sources of (quantum)
>>> randomness from the environment, but the code the computer itself uses
>>> contains no randomness as the whole point of digital devices is to
>>> completely submerge any source of randomness because that would pollute the
>>> code and/or data.
>>>
>>> Of course eventually everything, including computers, is subject to
>>> randomness and fails....
>>>
>>> Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
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