Dear Edgar,

  You are making a claim without support. Can you explain a mechanism that
generates the occurrence of the content of the computations. Bruno and
Wheeler do. I am much more Happy with Wheeler's explanation involving
interactions, but he does not explain observers. Bruno does give us a
definition of observers but it is as "objects" that exist a priori.
   I advocate Kitoshi Hitada's definition of observers as separable QM
systems, but that definition does not explain where the observables obtain,
they just exist a priori as "potentia".

  What is your ontological theory?


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Because it's not the computations themselves, but the fact they occur in
> the Present Time locus of reality that makes them real that is relevant...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:01:43 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Not quite. The CONTENTS of conscious are the results of computations.
>>> The FACT of consciousness itself, that the computations are conscious, is
>>> due to the self-manifesting nature of reality as explained in the other
>>> post.
>>>
>>> The rest of your questions don't follow. The fact that reality is real
>>> and actually exists means it must be present. That presence of reality
>>> self-manifests as the shared common present moment we all experience our
>>> existence within, which is the shared locus of reality, and that present
>>> moment is the only locus of reality. Therefore no block time, no MW, etc.
>>>
>>>
>> If the contents of conscious are the results of computations, and the
>> course of the computations is identical under presentism or block time,
>> then shouldn't the contents of the consciousness be the same whether
>> presentism or block time is true?  I don't follow why you say that doesn't
>> follow.  Could you elaborate?
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 11:06:51 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 8:28 AM, "Edgar L. Owen" <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jason,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for asking. I'll start a new topic on Consciousness hopefully
>>>> sometime today as it is clearly an important topic on its own.....
>>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 12:13:26 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think a computer can be conscious?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If yes, then do you think the experience of the consciousness within
>>>>>> the computer would be different if the computer existed in a block-time
>>>>>> universes instead of a moving-present universe?  If so, how/what would
>>>>>> cause the states of the evolving computer program to take a different
>>>>>> course in the block universe vs. the moving present universe?  If you see
>>>>>> no reason the computations should diverge, then you must agree the states
>>>>>> reached by the computer program are the same, and since they are the same
>>>>>> the conscious program could not behave any differently.  This includes 
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> realization that it is in a block-time vs. a moving-present universe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Edgar,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am particularly curious to hear what you think of the above
>>>>> reasoning. It seems that it applies to your theory which I believe at some
>>>>> level holds that  the right computations can produce consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Edgar,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your reply in the other thread. I see you answer that
>>>> consciousness is the result of a computation.
>>>>
>>>> If a conscious computation believes and feels like it is in a single
>>>> moving present moment, do you agree it will feel this way so long as the
>>>> same computation is performed, regardless of the hardware that executed it?
>>>>
>>>> If so, shouldn't it follow that whether the computation exists in a
>>>> moving present or in a block universe, that the conscious computation will
>>>> still feel and believe it exists in a single present moment?
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how any theory that uses the computational theory of mind
>>>> can escape this conclusion. As a consequence of it, we cannot use our
>>>> feeling of existing in a single present as any kind of true indicator for
>>>> what the reality of the matter is.
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
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