Bruno, You first assume all mathematics somehow exists 'out there' independent of humans. If that were true and actual reality consisted of all math sitting there in some static state, then you might be correct, but this is an enormous unwarranted assumption with no empirical evidence.

The much more useful model, the one I propose that actually mirrors the way reality works, is that reality math exists in an active state of computation, and is much less extensive than human math (only sufficient to compute actual natural processes). In this model everything is computed, and thus everything in the universe is computable because it IS actually computed. This means that the entire universe is a logical self-consistent and logically complete system. If it wasn't it would tear itself apart at the inconsistencies and pause at the incompletenesses and could not exist. I hope at least you can now better understand how my computational reality differs from your 'comp', and why conclusions from your comp do NOT apply to my computational reality... Do you understand the difference now? Edgar On Friday, January 10, 2014 4:42:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 10 Jan 2014, at 03:34, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Liz, > > No, that's not the only way to falsify it. One merely needs to show it > doesn't properly describe reality as I've just done. > > > ? > > > > If you even assume a computational universe in the first place you have to > assume (you are assuming) that it computes reality. The fact that reality > exists is conclusive proof. > > > That a reality independent of my consciousness exists is not a fact. It is > a prayer. Except for the reality of our own consciousness, but all content > of consciousness (except that one) are doubtable. > > Second, a reality can exist without being computed. the best and simple > example is arithmetic. Only a very tiny part of it is computable (this is > provable if you accept the Church Turing thesis). > > Bruno > > > > > Edgar > > > > On Thursday, January 9, 2014 8:53:18 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: >> >> On 10 January 2014 14:22, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >> >>> Liz, >>> >>> No, I don't agree with that at all. As I've said on a number of >>> occasions, reality is obviously computed because it exists. What more >>> convincing proof could there be? >>> >> >> One that explains why that has to be so would be a good start. >> >> >>> If Bruno's comp claims reality is non-computable it's pure nonsense >>> that is conclusively falsified by the very existence of reality. >>> >>> The point is that certain assumptions lead to certain conclusions. If >> the conclusions invalidate the assumptions, then the correct response is to >> throw out the original assumptions as invalid. Bruno starts from the >> assumption that consciousness is a form of computation and draws certain >> inferences. This isn't what comp "claims" it's what the argument shows, >> given the assumptions. The only way to falsify it is to show that one of >> the assumptions is wrong, or that there is a flaw in the reasoning that >> leads to the conclusions. >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.