On Jan 13, 2014, at 6:44 AM, "Edgar L. Owen" <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

Terren,

There is no "infinity of simulations". We are talking about actual reality rather than sci fi fantasy here, or at least we should be.

Edgar,

How do you know reality is really as small and limited as you think it is? Some fish in a pond might think their pond constitutes all of reality. So what assumptions led you to the idea that the universe is finite and that what we see is the only possible physics?


Every biological organism has one and only one internal mental simulation of its external reality environment. This whole system, external world simulated by the minds of multiple biological observers, actually consists only of computational information flows in the presence and logical space of reality. Everything, including ourselves, is analogous to running, interacting software programs.

The apparent physicality of reality in the minds of biological organisms is an evolutionary adaptation to make reality seem more meaningful and easier to function within. This physicality is not real, it's an internal mental illusion. I devote the entire Part IV of my book dissecting this illusion and explaining how it works.

So you accept that the physical world can be an illusion, but somehow you know deep down that the flow of time, the collapse of the wave, and the unicity of the physical laws are not illusions. I am intererested to know how you came to decide what was illusory and what is reality.



The book also explains in detail how once we identify and subtract everything mind adds to reality we arrive at what reality actually is, pure information computationally evolving in the logical space of reality I call ontological energy. When we peel back all the various layers of physicality that mind adds to external reality its remaining purely abstract information structure is clearly revealed.

Can your reasoning deduce that only one (and not all possible computations) are being performed by this ontological energy? That is a step I am not seeing any justification for.



We all live in a world that is actually almost entirely a construct of our mental simulations of an external information reality. Thus when we look out into the world we are mostly looking into the structures of our own minds. We live inside our minds under what I call the 'retinal sky'.

I agree with this for some sense of the word reality. But I also would say there is something external to our experiences that explains their existence.


Just as robots function within environments they simulate internally with computations, so do all biological organisms including ourselves. We do no 'see' the real actual world, we compute internal models of it and live within those.

It is only these internal biological simulations that there is any evidence for. There is no evidence of any 'matrix' type simulations.

Read Nick Bostrom's simulation argument. It is not proven, but it is not disproven either.

That's just adolescent sci fi unless there is some actual evidence. Again I went through that sci fi phase back in the 1960's in a short story i wrote on the same theme titled "The Livies". Let's stick to evidence based reality rather than sci fi...


How do we distinguish science fiction from science reality if we are trapped in the reality our mind creates for us? I would say the best we can do is firm models and see how they compare to experience. You have told us your conclusions, but not given us the model that led you to them. I think I speak for many on the list when I say this is what we are curious to see, since otherwise we have no idea how you got to the conclusions you have arrived upon.


Jason

Edgar


On Friday, January 10, 2014 1:05:29 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
Edgar,

That begs the question. You start by assuming reality is computed, and then conclude that because reality exists, reality must be computed.

Again I will point out that except for one key difference, your ideas and Bruno's are actually pretty similar. The difference of course being that the UDA entails that there are an infinity of computed realities.

Let me approach this from a different direction. Given that you agree that you could be digitally replaced and not notice the difference, this also entails that you could be placed into a simulation, where your simulated brain is functionally identical to your real brain or the prosthetic brain that could replace it with you noticing. So a simulation of you embedded in a simulated world is also conscious - this is more or less what your theory of consciousness says. The next step is to see that there are an infinity of possible simulations that contain your current brain state, and thus your consciousness, in this moment (or any given moment).

If you're still with me we can go back to the UDA, which in so many words says that all of these infinite simulations exist in Platonia, traced by the Universal Dovetailer (a rather simple program) - and your moment by moment reality is a view from the inside of the infinity of simulations that contain you. Indeed, physics and the physical world in general represent a stable measure on the kinds of worlds that could support your consciousness. But because the infinity of simulations is necessarily what renders the physical world, it is not computable. That is the contradiction entailed by a computational universe such as you elaborate in your theory.

Your objection about human math and reality math, I believe, is an attempt to refute step 8 of the UDA - that is usually the most problematic step for people who don't agree with the UDA. It would be very interesting if you could identify a flaw in the UDA, supported by arguments rather than simple assertion, as you have done to this point.

Terren


On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Liz,

No, that's not the only way to falsify it. One merely needs to show it doesn't properly describe reality as I've just done. If you even assume a computational universe in the first place you have to assume (you are assuming) that it computes reality. The fact that reality exists is conclusive proof.

Edgar



On Thursday, January 9, 2014 8:53:18 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
On 10 January 2014 14:22, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Liz,

No, I don't agree with that at all. As I've said on a number of occasions, reality is obviously computed because it exists. What more convincing proof could there be?

One that explains why that has to be so would be a good start.

If Bruno's comp claims reality is non-computable it's pure nonsense that is conclusively falsified by the very existence of reality.

The point is that certain assumptions lead to certain conclusions. If the conclusions invalidate the assumptions, then the correct response is to throw out the original assumptions as invalid. Bruno starts from the assumption that consciousness is a form of computation and draws certain inferences. This isn't what comp "claims" it's what the argument shows, given the assumptions. The only way to falsify it is to show that one of the assumptions is wrong, or that there is a flaw in the reasoning that leads to the conclusions.


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