2014/1/13 Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net>

> Terren,
>
> I just explained how it is possible to tell if your particular simulation
> is accurate or not. The fact of your continued existence. If it didn't
> accurately model the logic of external reality you wouldn't be here. The
> 'Matrix' scenario that you can't distinguish between all possible
> simulations is adolescent irrational sci fi BS. And if you recall, even in
> the Matrix they COULD tell which was real and which wasn't.
>
>
I really wonder who is the irrational bullshitter here.... This list
becomes more and more boring.

Quentin



> If your simulation was seriously inaccurate you wouldn't be here to tell
> me I couldn't tell....
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:58:13 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>> Edgar,
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Terren,
>>>
>>> Don't tell me what's in my theory. There are NO infinity of logical
>>> realities being computed. There is no Platonia....
>>>
>>
>> If what you're positing is a fundamental computational reality, then
>> there's nothing in principle that can select a single computational reality
>> over any other. All you appear to be doing is making that an assumption of
>> your theory, but it doesn't really buy you anything and it contradicts
>> computer science.  Sounds exactly like the argument over P-Time and Block
>> time... what a coincidence!
>>
>>
>>> You seem to be referencing Bruno's comp. There is NO 'Platonia' in my
>>> theory.
>>>
>>
>> Right, and because Platonia is logically implied given (what appear to
>> be) your assumptions, it signifies that your theory is inconsistent.
>>
>>
>>> There is enormous evidence and theoretical justification for Present
>>> moment P-time. It's the most fundamental obvious observation of our
>>> existence. Just pull your head out of your books and look around for
>>> goodness sakes. Are you alive? If so you are alive in the present moment...
>>>
>>
>> But you have pointed out that every observation we can make is based on a
>> constructed illusion. How do you go from the time we experience in the
>> constructed illusion of our experience, to the actual time of the universe?
>>  You have yet to justify that move.
>>
>>
>>> No two observers compute the same retinal sky. Everyone's simulation of
>>> reality is different.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed.  But there are an infinity of possible programs that compute your
>> retinal sky in this moment such that it would be impossible for you to
>> distinguish between them, from the inside. That fact has nothing to do with
>> my retinal sky, or anyone else's.
>>
>>
>>> There is absolute certain evidence for "real, actual reality".
>>>
>>
>> Evidence for reality only makes sense within a given theory. All we have
>> are models. What we are all doing here is a search for "the best" model.
>> Even if we think we have it, we can still never know what reality really
>> is. IOW there is no such thing as "absolute certain evidence" for anything.
>> You're engaging in dogma, as if there is only one possible model.
>>
>>
>>> Something has to be real because we exist, and what we exist in is
>>> reality. Whatever that is is the "real, actual reality". Anyone who doesn't
>>> think reality actually exists is brain dead....
>>>
>>
>> You seem to be saying that our existence is a fact that refutes the
>> possibility that we are, as Bruno describes it, "the numbers' dreams". And
>> while that *is* counter-intuitive, it's not a logical impossibility - on
>> the contrary, if you say yes to the doctor, it must be the case, unless
>> there is a flaw with the UDA.
>>
>> Terren
>>
>>
>>> Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:17:03 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Edgar,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Terren,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no "infinity of simulations". We are talking about actual
>>>>> reality rather than sci fi fantasy here, or at least we should be.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Given that your knowledge of reality necessarily comes from your own
>>>> mental simulation of it, it's not clear how you can be so sure about what
>>>> "actual reality" is. I understand you have a theory, but that's all any of
>>>> us have. We can rule theories out when contradicted by evidence, but you
>>>> haven't provided that, unless you count various hand-waving statements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Every biological organism has one and only one internal mental
>>>>> simulation of its external reality environment. This whole system, 
>>>>> external
>>>>> world simulated by the minds of multiple biological observers, actually
>>>>> consists only of computational information flows in the presence and
>>>>> logical space of reality. Everything, including ourselves, is analogous to
>>>>> running, interacting software programs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with that. However in the logical, computational space you
>>>> anchor your theory in (something referred to on this list sometimes as
>>>> Platonia), there are an infinity of such "logical realities" that go
>>>> through your current computational state. From your first-person
>>>> perspective you cannot predict which of the infinite continuations you will
>>>> inhabit in the next moment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The apparent physicality of reality in the minds of biological
>>>>> organisms is an evolutionary adaptation to make reality seem more
>>>>> meaningful and easier to function within. This physicality is not real,
>>>>> it's an internal mental illusion. I devote the entire Part IV of my book
>>>>> dissecting this illusion and explaining how it works.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I agree, and this is an important insight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  The book also explains in detail how once we identify and subtract
>>>>> everything mind adds to reality we arrive at what reality actually is, 
>>>>> pure
>>>>> information computationally evolving in the logical space of reality I 
>>>>> call
>>>>> ontological energy. When we peel back all the various layers of 
>>>>> physicality
>>>>> that mind adds to external reality its remaining purely abstract
>>>>> information structure is clearly revealed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I think your theory fails because it insists on a single,
>>>> fundamental computational universe, running in "P-time", for which there is
>>>> no evidence or theoretical justification (none that you have provided,
>>>> anyway). I know you point relentlessly to our everyday experience of
>>>> present-moments, but using introspection as evidence is problematic
>>>> precisely because as you have pointed out, our subjective reality is based
>>>> on an illusion constructed in the mind.
>>>>
>>>> Going from Ontological Energy to Platonia is the same move as going
>>>> from P-Time to Block Time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We all live in a world that is actually almost entirely a construct of
>>>>> our mental simulations of an external information reality. Thus when we
>>>>> look out into the world we are mostly looking into the structures of our
>>>>> own minds. We live inside our minds under what I call the 'retinal sky'.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Retinal sky is a good term. Imagine how many different kinds of
>>>> programs could compute the same retinal sky for any given moment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Just as robots function within environments they simulate internally
>>>>> with computations, so do all biological organisms including ourselves. We
>>>>> do no 'see' the real actual world, we compute internal models of it and
>>>>> live within those.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right, and this is why it is so unclear as to how you can be so certain
>>>> about what constitutes the "real actual world". Do you have access to some
>>>> kind of oracle?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It is only these internal biological simulations that there is any
>>>>> evidence for.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again, if you could only turn such statements inward on your own
>>>> theories, I think it would be much easier for your ideas to gain traction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There is no evidence of any 'matrix' type simulations. That's just
>>>>> adolescent sci fi unless there is some actual evidence. Again I went
>>>>> through that sci fi phase back in the 1960's in a short story i wrote on
>>>>> the same theme titled "The Livies". Let's stick to evidence based reality
>>>>> rather than sci fi...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By your own admission above there is no evidence for the "real, actual
>>>> reality" you've articulated either. It all looks like sci-fi to the naive
>>>> realist. If we dismissed theories on the basis of weirdness, we would have
>>>> tossed QM out the window a century ago.
>>>>
>>>> Terren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, January 10, 2014 1:05:29 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Edgar,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That begs the question. You start by assuming reality is computed,
>>>>>> and then conclude that because reality exists, reality must be computed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again I will point out that except for one key difference, your ideas
>>>>>> and Bruno's are actually pretty similar. The difference of course being
>>>>>> that the UDA entails that there are an infinity of computed realities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me approach this from a different direction. Given that you agree
>>>>>> that you could be digitally replaced and not notice the difference, this
>>>>>> also entails that you could be placed into a simulation, where your
>>>>>> simulated brain is functionally identical to your real brain or the
>>>>>> prosthetic brain that could replace it with you noticing. So a simulation
>>>>>> of you embedded in a simulated world is also conscious - this is more or
>>>>>> less what your theory of consciousness says. The next step is to see that
>>>>>> there are an infinity of possible simulations that contain your current
>>>>>> brain state, and thus your consciousness, in this moment (or any given
>>>>>> moment).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're still with me we can go back to the UDA, which in so many
>>>>>> words says that all of these infinite simulations exist in Platonia, 
>>>>>> traced
>>>>>> by the Universal Dovetailer (a rather simple program) - and your moment 
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> moment reality is a view from the inside of the infinity of simulations
>>>>>> that contain you. Indeed, physics and the physical world in general
>>>>>> represent a stable measure on the kinds of worlds that could support your
>>>>>> consciousness. But because the infinity of simulations is necessarily 
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> renders the physical world, it is not computable. That is the 
>>>>>> contradiction
>>>>>> entailed by a computational universe such as you elaborate in your 
>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your objection about human math and reality math, I believe, is an
>>>>>> attempt to refute step 8 of the UDA - that is usually the most 
>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>> step for people who don't agree with the UDA. It would be very 
>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>> if you could identify a flaw in the UDA, supported by arguments rather 
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> simple assertion, as you have done to this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Terren
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Liz,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, that's not the only way to falsify it. One merely needs to show
>>>>>>> it doesn't properly describe reality as I've just done. If you even 
>>>>>>> assume
>>>>>>> a computational universe in the first place you have to assume (you are
>>>>>>> assuming) that it computes reality. The fact that reality exists is
>>>>>>> conclusive proof.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 8:53:18 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 January 2014 14:22, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Liz,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, I don't agree with that at all. As I've said on a number of
>>>>>>>>> occasions, reality is obviously computed because it exists. What more
>>>>>>>>> convincing proof could there be?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One that explains why that has to be so would be a good start.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  If Bruno's comp claims reality is non-computable it's pure
>>>>>>>>> nonsense that is conclusively falsified by the very existence of 
>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is that certain assumptions lead to certain conclusions.
>>>>>>>> If the conclusions invalidate the assumptions, then the correct 
>>>>>>>> response is
>>>>>>>> to throw out the original assumptions as invalid. Bruno starts from the
>>>>>>>> assumption that consciousness is a form of computation and draws 
>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> inferences. This isn't what comp "claims" it's what the argument shows,
>>>>>>>> given the assumptions. The only way to falsify it is to show that one 
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the assumptions is wrong, or that there is a flaw in the reasoning that
>>>>>>>> leads to the conclusions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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-- 
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
Batty/Rutger Hauer)

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