On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> 1. First I demonstrated that SR falsifies block time (by requiring a
> moving arrow of time and a present moment), so since SR is well verified
> block time is false.
>

That things move does not disprove block time. All movement is is being in
different places at different times, which is perfectly valid and
consistent with the block-time view.  So I don't see what makes it any
different if everything moves at some fixed speed. Also, the "arrow of
time" has a different meaning in science than in the sense you seem to be
using it. It refers to the general process of entropy increase which serves
as a "pointer" in the same direction through space time in which we
accumulate memories, it is not refer to any particular direction in which
things travel through space time.  Everything with a non-zero velocity has
a different direction through time than you do. Some say anti-matter is
even traveling in the opposite direction.


>
> 2. I asked you around a dozen questions each homing in on another problem
> with block time. I received no convincing answers to any of them that I
> recall. Basically you just told me they weren't really problems without
> giving any reasons why not.
>

I provided reasons, as I did above.  On the other hand, I asked you a
number of questions, such as how you can know there is only a single
present moment, rather than 2, or 10, or 100, etc. but got no answer at all.


>
> 3. Then I asked you to clarify a couple of aspects of the structure of
> block time (e.g. is it a continuum or sequential frames) which you were
> unable to provide.
>

I don't recall being asked this question, but in any case I don't know, it
seems the jury is still out on whether or not space-time is quantized.


>
> Please understand I'm not singling you out here. The problem is not so
> much with your explanations as with the theory itself which is just not
> tenable and which of course you are not responsible for....
>

If anything, presentism is not tenable under relativity.  See "Time and
Physical Geometry" but Putnam (
http://philoscience.unibe.ch/documents/kursarchiv/SS04/PutnamJPhil.pdf ) or
"Is there an alternative to the block view" (
http://philoscience.unibe.ch/documents/kursarchiv/SS04/PutnamJPhil.pdf ) by
Petkov, or "How Relativity contradicts Presentism" (
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~lina0174/kansas.pdf ) by Saunders.

I have given you several of these sources before, but you will not read
them, so I don't know what more you expect me to do when you say I give you
no explanation or reason.  Please surprise me and read at least one of
those papers.

Jason


>
> Edgar
>
> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:56:56 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 15, 2014, at 6:36 AM, "Edgar L. Owen" <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Bruno,
>>
>> Thanks for the correction.
>>
>> But it's still just as bad to claim all arithmetic just sits there in
>> 'Platonia'. You still don't address the problem of how anything happens,
>> and how the universe gets computed. I know you claim that somehow movement
>> is an illusion of perspective from inside the system which sounds like the
>> nonsensical 'block time' universe, which no matter how many protest, is
>> riddled with contradictions and lacunas....
>>
>>
>> I don't recall you pointing out a single critique of block time for which
>> I or someone else did not offer a reasonable answer to.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> Edgar
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:04:30 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 14 Jan 2014, at 18:48, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
>>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Correct. Most reality math is likely fairly simple and fairly limited.
>> That's why Bruno's 'comp' that assumes all math exists out there somewhere
>> is so extraordinarily wrong and excessive and non-parsimonious.
>>
>>
>> I will stop comment, if you repeat false allegation already corrected in
>> previous posts.
>> I do not assume all math exists out there. Only arithmetic. "all math" is
>> an expression having no precise meaning. It means nothing, actually.
>>
>> Now, if you believe that "29 is prime" does depend on you, show me the
>> functional relation between "29 is prime" and "you", with "you" defined
>> without using the notion of numbers.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> As for the grid cells on the GR rubber sheet model just imagine a
>> mass-energy content in one cell dilating it. That automatically produces a
>> curvature in the rubber sheet around that mass-energy consistent with the
>> effects of space curvature in GR.
>>
>> Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 12:52:24 AM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
>>
>> On 14 January 2014 16:49, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Sure, the particle property conservation laws that conserve the amounts
>> of particle properties in elementary particle interactions, and the laws
>> that govern the binding of elementary particles in matter. These are the
>> fundamental computations that determine most of the structure of the
>> universe....
>>
>>
>> OK, but I would imagine most conservations laws don't require much
>> computation - aren't they more akin to storing (i.e. conserving) data?
>>
>>
>> How and where is the code stored? There is no 'where' in a
>> non-dimensional computational space. How it is stored I intimated in an
>> earlier response of an hour or so ago. It's stored as combinations of code
>> and data in the actual process of evolving computationally.
>>
>>
>> I don't understand what you mean by the code and data are stored "in the
>> process of evolving computationally"
>>
>>
>> How do the computations decide what data they will interact with? The
>> computations include the data they compute in one information structure as
>> explained above.
>>
>>
>> Where does that data come from? Is there any interaction between adjacent
>> computations? (Are there such things as adjacent computations? If there
>> isn't, how does locality emerge?)
>>
>>
>> What grid cells? Aren't you familiar with the standard rubber sheet model
>> of GR? The rubber sheet has grid cells drawn on it.
>>
>> The grid cells drawn in embedding diagrams are there to show the metrical
>> properties of space-time, while the computations you're talking about are,
>> I believe, what *generates* space-time. I don't (as yet) see an obvious
>> connection between the two.
>>
>>
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