Dear Bruno,
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear LizR, > > But stop and think of the implications of what even Bruno is saying. *Space > is completely a construction of our minds.* *There is no 3,1 dimensional > Riemannian manifold out there*. We measure events and our minds put those > together into tableaux that we communicate about and agree on, because our > languages, like formal logical system, force the results to obey a set of > implied rules. We formulate explanations, formulate models and look for > rules that the models might obey. Hopefully we can make predictions and > measure something... > > I really really like Bruno's notion of an observer. > > > OK. Nice. > > > > If only we could see eye to eye on the definitions of some other > concepts... Such as that Computation is an *action* or transformation, not > a static "being". > > > > Why not take the opportunity of Church thesis? It provides the cleanest > ever definition in math of an incredible epistemic notion "computability". > I don't have any problem with the Church thesis per se, I believe that it is half of the picture of that is going on. Remember I advocate a form of dualism (that of Vaughan Pratt), one that vanishes in the limit of infinite processes/systems into a neutral ground. The neutral ground obtains when we sum over all of the processes and streams and the directions of their arrows. > > And computability is the most dynamic notion I can imagine. > I do not disagree, but computations require the co-existence of some form of physicality to implement them, even if the physicality is not primitive. In my thinking a physical world obtains from the interactions between observers. It is a "shared reality" that has no existence to observers that are not participants in that reality. (In my thinking there is no single all encompassing "reality" as such would have vanishing properties. Consider what an uncountable infinity of different observers may all have in common as 1p content. The intersection for an infinite set of observers is a null or empty set.) You argue that my stipulation of a dualism is a violation of Occam's razor, ala Step 8 of UDA. I disagree, Occam's razon tells us that we must eliminate all *unnecessary* entities. My reasoning is that we need both logic and physics to have a viable comp theory. Numbers alone are like signs with no referents. > > Why assume a primitive time, when both the physical time and the > subjective time can be retrieved from the indexicals. > I do not assume or stipulate a primitive time. All notions of time vanish in the limit just as the ability to distinguish properties vanishes in the same limit of the neutral ground. I cannot count things that I cannot distinguish nor can I see without eyes. My ontology starts and ends with a undivided Whole with no particular properties of entities that make distinctions, so neither numbers, not time nor physical systems exist as primitives. All are co-emergent and co-defining. Remember, I assume that Becoming is fundamental, ala Heraclitus, as an axiom. You take AR as an axiom and then have a lacuna (open problem as a result). I have no such a "arithmetic body" problem. What I do have is a lack of formal theoretical expression of my hypothesis and for that you may beat me about the head and shoulders. I am still learning the math. :-) > > I don't need that hypothesis, and I think, modestly, that the UDA shows > that we just *can't *use it to explain machine's subjective time and > reality. > But you actually do need it, Bruno. The existence of the arithmetic body problem follows from the lack of that hypothesis! Additionally, you can discuss the UDA and we can argue about BECAUSE there is a fundamental Becoming. We do not need to assume particular measures or Hypostases other than 1) Existence cannot non-exist and 2) Becoming is Fundamental. When existence is dynamic instead of static , we can obtain all of the notions of statics from the equivalence classes, symmetry groups, automorphisms and fixed points and so forth. Consider Heraclitus' River where the level of the water never changes nor any other feature that you can detect remotely. Is it flowing or is it still? > > I appreciate you like comp, but you are not yet pushing the logic far > enough. > I am! I am dealing with problems that you refuse to see! > > Bruno > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:22 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 16 January 2014 16:19, Stephen Paul King >> <stephe...@provensecure.com>wrote: >> >>> Dear LizR, >>> >>> Yeah, Zeno didn't know about calculus... I was speaking to the idea >>> that "time moves". It doesn't, there is nothing to move. It is not an >>> object that can be observed. We can measure measures of time: duration, >>> sequence and energy. It is amazing how our minds can create "things" out of >>> ideas that are not even true. >>> >> >> I agree that time doesn't move. And "motion in space-time" doesn't make >> sense either. Motion in space, however... >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 8:09 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 16 January 2014 13:55, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@provensecure.com >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Edgar, >>>>> >>>>> Bingo! You are correct. All motion in space-time is an illusion. The >>>>> ancient greeks figured that out already. >>>>> >>>>> You mean Zeno? But he didn't know about the maths of infinity... :) >>>> >>>> (Just an aside. You're correct of course that time doesn't move. Time >>>> is what is used to measure movement through space, after all, so what could >>>> the movement of time be measured in relation to?) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe >>>> . >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Kindest Regards, >>> >>> Stephen Paul King >>> >>> Senior Researcher >>> >>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099 >>> >>> stephe...@provensecure.com >>> >>> http://www.provensecure.us/ >>> >>> >>> “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use >>> of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain >>> information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and >>> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as >>> attorney work product. 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