On 19 Jan 2014, at 23:10, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

Bruno, To answer your questions sequentially.I don't see any way "the arithmetical true relations" compute oremulate anything.

`I agree this is not obvious. But it is "known" by all experts in the`

`field.`

`That is already present in Gödel 1931, and today we know that even`

`just one diophantine (on integeres) polynomial of degree four can`

`emulated all computations; or be Turing universal.`

They just sit there motionless and nothing happens.

`But that is not a problem for those who accept a relativistic or`

`indexical notion of time. You seems to believe that such a notion is`

`contradictory. But well, it is, with the assumption of a present time.`

`But that is already contradictory with the comp's consequence.`

You haven't explained how motion arises from non-motion and no oneelse here understands that either.

`Many understand this. beyond this, the number of people who understand`

`an argument has no role in the argument itself. "Everybody knows`

`that ..." is never an argument.`

Reality is one continuous program

`I guess you mean active program. I is the activity which is continued,`

`not the program. OK?`

but every information element actively computes its evolution.

?

Which program is it? It's the program that it is of course.

?

You seem to think there are a bunches of software reality can pickoff some magical shelf and run.

`I assume that the brain or body, in some general sense, can be`

`emulated by a computer. then the emulation is in arithmetic (as`

`arithmetic is provably Turing complete (the well known non obvious`

`fact that I can explain if you ask)), then it is the consciousness`

`which pick up its local possible software among all those already`

`active (relatively) in arithmetic.`

Ain't so. Reality runs the program that it actually is that actuallycomputes actual reality.

Which reality?

Yes, the program is Turing compute and Godel complete,

`If it is Turing complete, it has to be Gödel incomplete. That's a`

`theorem.`

or more properly those concepts don't apply since every state isimmediately computed from the prior state and that can ALWAYS bedone, just as it IS always done in ALL software.

`In arithmetic yes. In my local computer no. There are software that`

`are not executed.`

Sorry you can't make sense of the necessity that the computationshave to happen SOMEWHERE.

So you assume some physical space? I do not.

That somewhere is the present moment of reality,

So you assume some physical moment/time? I do not.

where else would the computations that compute reality take place?

`In arithmetic. The existence of (finite) computations are theorems in`

`very elementary arithmetic. They follow from the modud ponens and the`

`laws of addition and multiplication, like the distribution of the`

`prime numbers is entirely determined by those laws.`

The reason your Platonia doesn't work is because it LACKS such anactual present moment that provides the happening that makes mycomputations real and actual and provides the movement that makesthem happen....

`It certainly lacks a present moment, but it explains all by itself why`

`there are machine believing in local correct way in present moment and`

`present space. It explains also why those belief can be knowledge, and`

`sometimes irrational sort of non communicable or rationally`

`justifiable knowledge. And the theory is testable.`

`Anyway, if your theory is clear, you should use it to find a flaw in`

`the UDA, and everybody will learn something if you succeed in the task`

`of finding that flaw.`

`But you must work *in* the theory comp, and use you theory at some`

`other level to find the flaw. You cannot just oppose your theory with`

`the consequence of the reasoning, unless to say that comp is false.`

`But the, like Craig, you must say clearly that your theory is not a`

`computationalist theory, in the sense that it should imply that you`

`will say "no" to the doctor, or reify a notion of primitive matter`

`with an ad hoc small finite and very special physical reality.`

Bruno

Edgar On Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:50:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Jan 2014, at 19:51, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Stephen,I agree with your criticism of Bruno's UDA. It has no explanationfor becoming, for anything ever happening. I've also pointed this out.However, this is equally true of block time, which you seem tobelieve in. In block time there is no convincing way anything canever actually happen.I agree. Stephen seems to be contradictory on that issue.On the other hand my model solves this fundamental problem bypositing an actively computing realityHow can I distinguish it from the actively computing realityemulated by the arithmetical true relations?Is reality one program? Can you tell which one?Is your computation framework Turing complete? If not is less ormore than Turing complete?in a present moment of p-time as the fundamental level of reality.I cannot make sense of that, either with QM, nor with SR, nor withCR, nor with comp, ... Sorry.Bruno EdgarOn Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:54:15 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul Kingwrote:Dear Bruno,On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 17 Jan 2014, at 20:38, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno,On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, <div style="font-family:arial,helv ... --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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