On Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:33:18 AM UTC+11, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Russell, > > > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will > is > > quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is > > "irrational". > > > > If human actions and the actions of other biological organisms weren't > > basically rational they couldn't function or survive in the real actual > > world they live in.... > > That is not true. Read up on the concept of Machiavellian > Intelligence. A modicum of irrationality is just what it takes to get > ahead in the world, it makes one less predictable to one's competitors. > > > > > Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined > by > > their environments. > > > > Rational beings are completely determined by their > environment. Rational, by definition, means choosing the best course > of action (according to some utility). A rational being becomes > completely stuck when presented with two completely identical > preferred choices. e will continue in an endless loop analysing the > options to determine which is best. Even some people I know have trouble > in > this situation, but will eventually break out of it by giving up the > analysis (ie behaving irrationally). > > But surely to be caught in indecision between two equidistant bowls of food is irrational if the goal is survival rather than merely, say, "maximizing nutrition". Any rational agent confronted with two courses of action which it cannot decide between on the basis of advantage will soon recognize the disadvantage of deciding on neither, and will make an essentially random choice. That does not seem to be behaving irrationally, but rather to be behaving rationally with respect to the choice between choosing randomly or not choosing at all. What the example shows is that it is rational to make a random choice under some circumstances, not that one must sometimes behave irrationally.
> > > The trick is to understand how quantum based indeterminacy can be > amplified > > to rationality.... > > > > I don't think that is possible. Amplification to irrationality, > however, is easy to understand. Just employ chaos theory. In fact, the > brain appears to be just so structured (see Scientific American, vol > 264, pp 78-85). > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:01:26 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > > > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb <[email protected]<javascript:>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. > So > > > why > > > > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teehee. You're not the messiah, you're a very naught boy! > > > > > > > > I thought Tegmark showed that the Penrose theory is unlikely (by > some > > > > ridiculously large factor) because the brain isn't supercooled and > > > isolated > > > > from influences that may cause decoherence within about 10^-25 > > > seconds... > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Quantum superposition within microtubules seems an unlikely > > > source of computational power within the brain. Quantum randomness is > > > more likely to occur due to thermal fluctuations across the synaptic > > > gap, and I quite agree with Edgar that it is an essential part of the > > > only sensible conception of free will (the ability to act > irrationality). > > > > > > Not that Edgar is the first to say it, nor would I claim that title > > > for myself :). > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > > Principal, High Performance Coders > > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics > > > [email protected]<javascript:> > > > > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected]<javascript:>. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected]<javascript:> > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
