On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote:
> But recall that p-time is not a directly measurable quantity so "arbitrary > precision" does not apply. You still haven't grasped the concept correctly. > P-time has no direct measure, because the present moment is that in which > all measures, including those of clock time, are computed. > I don't recall you ever spelling that out in conversation with me, thanks for clarifying. In the past people had asked you about how to determine p-time and you had said things like "we should be able to compute p-time from Omega, the curvature of the universe" (in the post at http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg47450.html). So if you now say that determining which events are simultaneous in p-time is fundamentally impossible for any being within the universe, that answers what I was wondering about in question #1. Jesse > > Nevertheless the fact of existence of all observers and thus of everything > in the present moment is a direct empirical observation. Just like > consciousness it is not subject to measure, but that doesn't mean it > doesn't exist. > > Edgar > > On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:47:05 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 7:38 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 2/5/2014 9:31 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: >>> >>> --question 1 dealt with the question of how YOU would define p-time >>> simultaneity in a cosmological model where there's no way to slice the 4D >>> spacetime into a series of 3D surfaces such that the density of matter is >>> perfectly uniform on each slice (and that uniform can be characterized by >>> the parameter Omega), unlike in the simple FLRW model where matter is >>> assumed to be distributed in this perfectly uniform way. >>> >>> >>> I don't see that perfect uniformity is necessary. We have calculated >>> our epoch relative to the CMB as 13.8By. I assume any other scientific >>> species in the universe could do the same and so say whether they were 'at >>> the same time' as measured by expansion of the cosmos. I don't see how the >>> existence of galaxies and galaxy clusters precludes this kind of >>> measurement. >>> >> >> >> Using the CMB may give an approximate answer, but would you argue it >> could distinguish between different simultaneity definitions that agree >> approximately when averaged over large scales, but disagree somewhat about >> the details of simultaneity in highly curved regions? For example, could >> the CMB be used to define a unique definition of simultaneity in the >> neighborhood of a black hole (where coordinate systems like Schwarzschild >> coordinates and Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates and Kruskal-Szekeres >> coordinates give very different definitions of simultaneity)? Edgar isn't >> just claiming some approximate pragmatic truth about simultaneity, he's >> claiming an absolute and exact truth about simultaneity in all >> circumstances, I was asking if he thinks this truth can be empirically >> determined to arbitrary precision even in principle, and if so what >> empirical observations would be used. >> >> Jesse >> >> >> >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
