Quentin, It IS a problem for reality and for relativity, because it exposes a hidden assumption of relativity without which relativity doesn't make sense, that there must be a common present moment in which relativistic results occur for those results to make sense and be meaningful, for the comparison of different t values to occur.
But it's clear from your comments you are here to flame rather than to understand... Edgar On Thursday, February 6, 2014 6:45:56 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > > 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected] <javascript:>>: > >> Quentin, >> >> For starters, as I've said on numerous occasions, it solves the question >> of how observers can have different relativistic clock times in the same >> present moment. >> > > It doesn't solve anything, because it's not a problem for relativity... I > agree that solving a non-existent problem is easy.... but useless. > > >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:33:02 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> I've read all of them, there is nothing about what it is supposed to >>> solve... >>> >>> Please state it here and now... do not refer to inexistant post. >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >>> >>> Quentin, >>>> >>>> Please refer to my extensive posts to Jesse for that... >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:13 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>>> >>>>> So, what is it ? What is it supposed to solve in the first place ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>> Quentin, >>>>>> >>>>>> But it's NOT the case... >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 10:52:58 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2014-02-06 Jesse Mazer <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But recall that p-time is not a directly measurable quantity so >>>>>>>>> "arbitrary precision" does not apply. You still haven't grasped the >>>>>>>>> concept >>>>>>>>> correctly. P-time has no direct measure, because the present moment >>>>>>>>> is that >>>>>>>>> in which all measures, including those of clock time, are computed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't recall you ever spelling that out in conversation with me, >>>>>>>> thanks for clarifying. In the past people had asked you about how to >>>>>>>> determine p-time and you had said things like "we should be able to >>>>>>>> compute >>>>>>>> p-time from Omega, the curvature of the universe" (in the post at >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/everything-list@googlegroups. >>>>>>>> com/msg47450.html ). So if you now say that determining which >>>>>>>> events are simultaneous in p-time is fundamentally impossible for any >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> within the universe, that answers what I was wondering about in >>>>>>>> question #1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If that's the case... what good is it to entertain such "p-time"... >>>>>>> it's useless. Predict nothing, cannot be measured. What is p-time >>>>>>> supposed >>>>>>> to solve ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jesse >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nevertheless the fact of existence of all observers and thus of >>>>>>>>> everything in the present moment is a direct empirical observation. >>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> like consciousness it is not subject to measure, but that doesn't >>>>>>>>> mean it >>>>>>>>> doesn't exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:47:05 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 7:38 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2014 9:31 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --question 1 dealt with the question of how YOU would define >>>>>>>>>>> p-time simultaneity in a cosmological model where there's no way to >>>>>>>>>>> slice >>>>>>>>>>> the 4D spacetime into a series of 3D surfaces such that the density >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> matter is perfectly uniform on each slice (and that uniform can be >>>>>>>>>>> characterized by the parameter Omega), unlike in the simple FLRW >>>>>>>>>>> model >>>>>>>>>>> where matter is assumed to be distributed in this perfectly uniform >>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see that perfect uniformity is necessary. We have >>>>>>>>>>> calculated our epoch relative to the CMB as 13.8By. I assume any >>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>> scientific species in the universe could do the same and so say >>>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>>> they were 'at the same time' as measured by expansion of the >>>>>>>>>>> cosmos. I >>>>>>>>>>> don't see how the existence of galaxies and galaxy clusters >>>>>>>>>>> precludes this >>>>>>>>>>> kind of measurement. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Using the CMB may give an approximate answer, but would you argue >>>>>>>>>> it could distinguish between different simultaneity definitions that >>>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>>> approximately when averaged over large scales, but disagree somewhat >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> the details of simultaneity in highly curved regions? For example, >>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>> the CMB be used to define a unique definition of simultaneity in the >>>>>>>>>> neighborhood of a black hole (where coordinate systems like >>>>>>>>>> Schwarzschild >>>>>>>>>> coordinates and Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates and >>>>>>>>>> Kruskal-Szekeres >>>>>>>>>> coordinates give very different definitions of simultaneity)? Edgar >>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>> just claiming some approximate pragmatic truth about simultaneity, >>>>>>>>>> he's >>>>>>>>>> claiming an absolute and exact truth about simultaneity in all >>>>>>>>>> circumstances, I was asking if he thinks this truth can be >>>>>>>>>> empirically >>>>>>>>>> determined to arbitrary precision even in principle, and if so what >>>>>>>>>> empirical observations would be used. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jesse >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>>>> /everything-list. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
