2014-02-06 Jesse Mazer <[email protected]>: > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> But recall that p-time is not a directly measurable quantity so >> "arbitrary precision" does not apply. You still haven't grasped the concept >> correctly. P-time has no direct measure, because the present moment is that >> in which all measures, including those of clock time, are computed. >> > > I don't recall you ever spelling that out in conversation with me, thanks > for clarifying. In the past people had asked you about how to determine > p-time and you had said things like "we should be able to compute p-time > from Omega, the curvature of the universe" (in the post at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg47450.html). > So if you now say that determining which events are simultaneous in > p-time is fundamentally impossible for any being within the universe, that > answers what I was wondering about in question #1. >
If that's the case... what good is it to entertain such "p-time"... it's useless. Predict nothing, cannot be measured. What is p-time supposed to solve ? > > Jesse > > > >> >> Nevertheless the fact of existence of all observers and thus of >> everything in the present moment is a direct empirical observation. Just >> like consciousness it is not subject to measure, but that doesn't mean it >> doesn't exist. >> >> Edgar >> >> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:47:05 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 7:38 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2/5/2014 9:31 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: >>>> >>>> --question 1 dealt with the question of how YOU would define p-time >>>> simultaneity in a cosmological model where there's no way to slice the 4D >>>> spacetime into a series of 3D surfaces such that the density of matter is >>>> perfectly uniform on each slice (and that uniform can be characterized by >>>> the parameter Omega), unlike in the simple FLRW model where matter is >>>> assumed to be distributed in this perfectly uniform way. >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't see that perfect uniformity is necessary. We have calculated >>>> our epoch relative to the CMB as 13.8By. I assume any other scientific >>>> species in the universe could do the same and so say whether they were 'at >>>> the same time' as measured by expansion of the cosmos. I don't see how the >>>> existence of galaxies and galaxy clusters precludes this kind of >>>> measurement. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Using the CMB may give an approximate answer, but would you argue it >>> could distinguish between different simultaneity definitions that agree >>> approximately when averaged over large scales, but disagree somewhat about >>> the details of simultaneity in highly curved regions? For example, could >>> the CMB be used to define a unique definition of simultaneity in the >>> neighborhood of a black hole (where coordinate systems like Schwarzschild >>> coordinates and Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates and Kruskal-Szekeres >>> coordinates give very different definitions of simultaneity)? Edgar isn't >>> just claiming some approximate pragmatic truth about simultaneity, he's >>> claiming an absolute and exact truth about simultaneity in all >>> circumstances, I was asking if he thinks this truth can be empirically >>> determined to arbitrary precision even in principle, and if so what >>> empirical observations would be used. >>> >>> Jesse >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
